Hey! Anyone out there interested in trying this out and want to buy a full set of crossover parts? I built the post #1602 version of this, and then took it apart to do something else. I have crossover parts that I don't need anymore.
They were really only used sparingly. All assembled and mounted to a board. retails comes to $90 in parts per set ($180 for a pair). Make me an offer! $90 for a pair + shipping? Weirdly, I have three sets of parts (long story), so one pair, plus a single set.
Send me a PM!
parts express part numbers as follows:
266-960 ERSE Super Q 20mH 16 AWG 500W Inductor Crossover Coil
255-434 Jantzen Audio 2.7mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
027-236 Dayton Audio PMPC-6.2 6.2uF 250V Precision Audio Capacitor
005-15 Mills 15 Ohm 12W Non-Inductive Resistor
005-8 Mills 8 Ohm 12W Non-Inductive Resistor
091-1154 Parts Express Dual-Ended Gold Binding Post Speaker Terminal Pair
They were really only used sparingly. All assembled and mounted to a board. retails comes to $90 in parts per set ($180 for a pair). Make me an offer! $90 for a pair + shipping? Weirdly, I have three sets of parts (long story), so one pair, plus a single set.
Send me a PM!
parts express part numbers as follows:
266-960 ERSE Super Q 20mH 16 AWG 500W Inductor Crossover Coil
255-434 Jantzen Audio 2.7mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
027-236 Dayton Audio PMPC-6.2 6.2uF 250V Precision Audio Capacitor
005-15 Mills 15 Ohm 12W Non-Inductive Resistor
005-8 Mills 8 Ohm 12W Non-Inductive Resistor
091-1154 Parts Express Dual-Ended Gold Binding Post Speaker Terminal Pair
15" woofer clearance issue - as I put finishing touches on standmounters with GRS woofs (doesn't seem to have an actual name?) I was surprised how much relief was needed to clear the lateral back sides where they interfere with the 2x2 reinforcements. I chopped out a big chuck with an oscillating saw.
I cut the baffles at 15.5" wide, so with sidewings the front surface is 17". Rear clearance is as a result 15.5", but where the woofer basket installs, width is only 12.5 (subtract the actual 3" for 2 reinforcing 2x2s).
The fact that no one seems to have commented on this has me thinking the baffle should be 17" plus 1.5" for sidewings.
Received the long-backordered pair of woofers yesterday, and one was pretty bent-up. My conclusion is inadequate packing by PE - double-boxed but no cushioning. We'll see what they say after looking through several images of damage I sent.
Cam
I cut the baffles at 15.5" wide, so with sidewings the front surface is 17". Rear clearance is as a result 15.5", but where the woofer basket installs, width is only 12.5 (subtract the actual 3" for 2 reinforcing 2x2s).
The fact that no one seems to have commented on this has me thinking the baffle should be 17" plus 1.5" for sidewings.
Received the long-backordered pair of woofers yesterday, and one was pretty bent-up. My conclusion is inadequate packing by PE - double-boxed but no cushioning. We'll see what they say after looking through several images of damage I sent.
Cam
Kudos to PE customer service - they will send a replacement right away after seeing images showing the damaged woofer and packaging. Seems to me that UPS dropped the sideways-packed pair of drivers on its side, but there wasn't much protection in the double boxes.
One other question: how important is having a gasket or seal between the woofer and baffle? There's a serious gasket thoroughly glued to the front of the 15" woofer, not removable to use on the rear surface. I have used weatherstripping for this in the past for sealed or ported boxes.
Cam
One other question: how important is having a gasket or seal between the woofer and baffle? There's a serious gasket thoroughly glued to the front of the 15" woofer, not removable to use on the rear surface. I have used weatherstripping for this in the past for sealed or ported boxes.
Cam
Updates to the updates
The rubber feet sounded good at first but I noticed there was something wrong after a few days of listening. The impact of the piano sounded dull and lifeless and after playing around a bit it turned out to be caused by the rubber footers. They cut the bass boom from the suspended wooden floors nicely but seemed to be rounding off the attack of the notes.
Put concrete pavers on the rubber feet and the Ultras right on top of the pavers. That's a pretty nice improvement. The bass is still full but isn't reacting with the wood floors the same way it did when they were simply on the floor. The bass is tighter, too, and no loss of impact or smearing of notes like on the rubber footers.
Then moved them back into the living room. Bigger room, better electronics and a power conditioner. You should hear these things now. Sweet sounding.
All of the recent changes have moved them from being somewhat murky sounding to being more clear and yet still laid back with a somewhat tube-like tone. To use an old film analogy they lean towards the warmth and reds of Kodachrome rather than the cool blues of Ektachrome.
The rubber feet sounded good at first but I noticed there was something wrong after a few days of listening. The impact of the piano sounded dull and lifeless and after playing around a bit it turned out to be caused by the rubber footers. They cut the bass boom from the suspended wooden floors nicely but seemed to be rounding off the attack of the notes.
Put concrete pavers on the rubber feet and the Ultras right on top of the pavers. That's a pretty nice improvement. The bass is still full but isn't reacting with the wood floors the same way it did when they were simply on the floor. The bass is tighter, too, and no loss of impact or smearing of notes like on the rubber footers.
Then moved them back into the living room. Bigger room, better electronics and a power conditioner. You should hear these things now. Sweet sounding.
All of the recent changes have moved them from being somewhat murky sounding to being more clear and yet still laid back with a somewhat tube-like tone. To use an old film analogy they lean towards the warmth and reds of Kodachrome rather than the cool blues of Ektachrome.
Thanks for the photos, somehow I missed them when you originally posted. The pictures sure help! It's good to let the Vifa breath and have a smooth space to do it in.
Another way I had tried, tho I can't find any photos, was to put the Vifa on a thin baffle. By making a large baffle cut-out for the Vifa, say 5" diameter, then putting the thin baffle into that, you get open space at the rear of the driver. Basically the same as you did, but without routing the depth.
Another way I had tried, tho I can't find any photos, was to put the Vifa on a thin baffle. By making a large baffle cut-out for the Vifa, say 5" diameter, then putting the thin baffle into that, you get open space at the rear of the driver. Basically the same as you did, but without routing the depth.
My Build So Far
I have essentially completed what I hesitantly call a Manzanita Non-Ultra CV - GRS woofer on 17" baffle. I started playing it with the standard crossover values posted for both Peerless and GRS versions with HF attenuation 4.5Ohms, trap resistor 8.0Ohms, and have made some adjustments to those to get the Vifa a little less glaring and better integrated. I do wonder why the Ultra crossover uses significantly larger resistors for both positions. The much larger baffle increases the low end output, so I would expect the main pad would decrease and the HF trap remain much the same.
And following up my post above is an image showing the half-inch chunk removed from the 2x2 support to clear the woofer basket. Not really an issue, but it suprised me since no one seemed to have mentioned this requirement.
Having fun playing around with optimizing these speakers. Right now they're on makeshift 16" stands. 22" stands are in process in my garage - 20 degrees today out there! I'll have more to say about the sound later on.
Cam
I have essentially completed what I hesitantly call a Manzanita Non-Ultra CV - GRS woofer on 17" baffle. I started playing it with the standard crossover values posted for both Peerless and GRS versions with HF attenuation 4.5Ohms, trap resistor 8.0Ohms, and have made some adjustments to those to get the Vifa a little less glaring and better integrated. I do wonder why the Ultra crossover uses significantly larger resistors for both positions. The much larger baffle increases the low end output, so I would expect the main pad would decrease and the HF trap remain much the same.
And following up my post above is an image showing the half-inch chunk removed from the 2x2 support to clear the woofer basket. Not really an issue, but it suprised me since no one seemed to have mentioned this requirement.
Having fun playing around with optimizing these speakers. Right now they're on makeshift 16" stands. 22" stands are in process in my garage - 20 degrees today out there! I'll have more to say about the sound later on.
Cam
Have you shipped them?
Hey tubers - have you shipped out my set yet? Haven't heard anything from you in the past several days. Let me know.
gabkw
Hey tubers - have you shipped out my set yet? Haven't heard anything from you in the past several days. Let me know.
gabkw
Hey all -
Many resistor changes and a few capacitor tweaks have come and gone, and 22" poplar stands are in use. Burn-in is on-going, my own perception is no doubt altering, too. Speaker positioning in my small room is still progressing.
The Manzanitas are just flat starting to sing! I was begining to have some doubts, but resistor values began to gravitiate from the values in post #1601, same as for Peerless 12" design, to those shown in post #1602, for the Ultra with GRS 15". I don't want to waste energy figuring why this might be the case, I'm just really happy to have gotten to this configuration. Lots of varied and confusing information to sort through in these 1710 posts!
Current values are 8Ohm R1 (attenuation), 13.5Ohm trap (with 2.0mH coil), and 6.54uF cap. I'm ordering coils and caps for the woofer trap, to clean up a bit of glare in the roll-off zone..
Things that made a difference for me also are: silcone feet between stand and baffle, a little rearward tilt under the front or the stand's bases for a bit time-alignment and a higher full-ranger aim. The placement is far apart, almost 9' apart, 24" from sidewalls, 37" from back wall, listening position some 8'.
Sound has tightened, coherency improved, imaging and soundstage are just right - not too tall or wide, images not oversized. Very life-like with good recordings, and surprising new
differences between recordings. Big fun. Thanks to John and Pano, and many other contributors. I'm certainly not done with this journey yet, though!
- Cam
Apologies for what previews to be a sideways image.
Many resistor changes and a few capacitor tweaks have come and gone, and 22" poplar stands are in use. Burn-in is on-going, my own perception is no doubt altering, too. Speaker positioning in my small room is still progressing.
The Manzanitas are just flat starting to sing! I was begining to have some doubts, but resistor values began to gravitiate from the values in post #1601, same as for Peerless 12" design, to those shown in post #1602, for the Ultra with GRS 15". I don't want to waste energy figuring why this might be the case, I'm just really happy to have gotten to this configuration. Lots of varied and confusing information to sort through in these 1710 posts!
Current values are 8Ohm R1 (attenuation), 13.5Ohm trap (with 2.0mH coil), and 6.54uF cap. I'm ordering coils and caps for the woofer trap, to clean up a bit of glare in the roll-off zone..
Things that made a difference for me also are: silcone feet between stand and baffle, a little rearward tilt under the front or the stand's bases for a bit time-alignment and a higher full-ranger aim. The placement is far apart, almost 9' apart, 24" from sidewalls, 37" from back wall, listening position some 8'.
Sound has tightened, coherency improved, imaging and soundstage are just right - not too tall or wide, images not oversized. Very life-like with good recordings, and surprising new
differences between recordings. Big fun. Thanks to John and Pano, and many other contributors. I'm certainly not done with this journey yet, though!
- Cam
Apologies for what previews to be a sideways image.
Attachments
Cam.... thanks for sharing your journey with the Manzanita! (Picture too!)
I liked your observation about hearing the differences in recordings. Not that many speakers can do that as well as the Manzanita. When set up correctly, it can really let you know about the recording - playback chain.
It is unfortunate that there is some confusing info in the Manzanita thread. Some of that is my fault for not managing it better. Over 10 years and all the variants, it's a wonder there is any coherency at all! Part of an evolving process I guess. As for crossover tweaking, when you consider the cost of the drivers, it's not unusual to have quite a bit of variance. This is part of what drives the tweaking issue. You can't go out for a decent dinner for two for the $40 cost of the GRS 15 & Vifa. (Especially if you order a decent glass of wine!)
One more comment... although it is fun and educational to play with this speaker, it is also interesting to learn when you have wrung out all the performance it is capable of. Knowing when to stop and enjoy it!
I liked your observation about hearing the differences in recordings. Not that many speakers can do that as well as the Manzanita. When set up correctly, it can really let you know about the recording - playback chain.
It is unfortunate that there is some confusing info in the Manzanita thread. Some of that is my fault for not managing it better. Over 10 years and all the variants, it's a wonder there is any coherency at all! Part of an evolving process I guess. As for crossover tweaking, when you consider the cost of the drivers, it's not unusual to have quite a bit of variance. This is part of what drives the tweaking issue. You can't go out for a decent dinner for two for the $40 cost of the GRS 15 & Vifa. (Especially if you order a decent glass of wine!)
One more comment... although it is fun and educational to play with this speaker, it is also interesting to learn when you have wrung out all the performance it is capable of. Knowing when to stop and enjoy it!
John - good to hear from you!
Not sure I know about this "knowing when you have wrung out all the performance it is capable of." Too compulsive, eventually I'll move on to something else. But meanwhile the improvements experienced just cry out to be continued and built upon if at all possible, and more reasonable the entry price the more exciting, surprising and encouraging the little breakthroughs.
I'm interested in your journey with the variations of the concept, particularly how much is gained by going way up, monetarily, to the NE123W-08. Looks to have more top end for sure. Maybe no trap filter? Not really a big expense in the larger scheme of high end drivers.
Also, the overall efficiency doesn't allow me to put my 300b or EL84 PP amps into use, except to biwire, SS amp on the woofer, etc. Easy to try. Anyone try this?
Are you showing at the upcoming LSAF? Might be a nice road trip for me from Fort Collins. After experience with huge venues like the CES this looks to be really pleasant, a bit more like our RMAF.
Cam
Not sure I know about this "knowing when you have wrung out all the performance it is capable of." Too compulsive, eventually I'll move on to something else. But meanwhile the improvements experienced just cry out to be continued and built upon if at all possible, and more reasonable the entry price the more exciting, surprising and encouraging the little breakthroughs.
I'm interested in your journey with the variations of the concept, particularly how much is gained by going way up, monetarily, to the NE123W-08. Looks to have more top end for sure. Maybe no trap filter? Not really a big expense in the larger scheme of high end drivers.
Also, the overall efficiency doesn't allow me to put my 300b or EL84 PP amps into use, except to biwire, SS amp on the woofer, etc. Easy to try. Anyone try this?
Are you showing at the upcoming LSAF? Might be a nice road trip for me from Fort Collins. After experience with huge venues like the CES this looks to be really pleasant, a bit more like our RMAF.
Cam
Widerange Upgrade
Right now I'm fairly convinced the TC9 is hard to beat without ponying up to several times its cost, and then maybe the Scan-Speak Discovery 10F/8414G10 fits the bill very well. $65 at Madisound, $30 less than the well-regarded 8424 (fullrange, midrange?). Seems much more a mid-tweet than the NE124 and smoother to boot.
OK, I'm still getting good satisfaction from the TC9, and it should still have more settling-in to do. Just planning for upgrade-itis!
Cam
Right now I'm fairly convinced the TC9 is hard to beat without ponying up to several times its cost, and then maybe the Scan-Speak Discovery 10F/8414G10 fits the bill very well. $65 at Madisound, $30 less than the well-regarded 8424 (fullrange, midrange?). Seems much more a mid-tweet than the NE124 and smoother to boot.
OK, I'm still getting good satisfaction from the TC9, and it should still have more settling-in to do. Just planning for upgrade-itis!
Cam
Hopkins .. The Tymphany NE123W-08 is a great driver and can work equally well with the Peerless 12" or GRS 15, assuming proper adjustments to the crossover. I have shied away from using it on the Manzanita DIY version due to cost and crossover complexities. And, as stated before, trying to keep the Manzanita DIY version entry level cost and construction effort as low and simple as possible .
I do use, as I suspected you saw at my MAS site, the NE123W-08 in a Commercial Version of the Manzanita. It is definitely an improvement, but for the cost and complexity differences it better be.
I do use, as I suspected you saw at my MAS site, the NE123W-08 in a Commercial Version of the Manzanita. It is definitely an improvement, but for the cost and complexity differences it better be.
Hi, thank you for confirming this. I saw your comments on the thread on the NE123W. I will try to get it to work (trial and error)... Any tips would be greatly appreciated!
Cam..... I have made my reservations for the 2018 LSAF. What I will bring, god only knows and he stopped talking to me quite a while ago!
Want to do a couple of boxes.... very small to medium in size. Like 7 Liter and 30 liter net internal volume. One ported, and one sealed. Want to present a couple of competitive system(s) for a real world total price of $5 K or less. By system(s) I mean turn key, amp, CD player, cables, stands. The whole and complete enchilada. As in .... plug and play!!
However....
My roots are OB... Duh! So I have to decide which of several promising project to bring. I have an updated original Manzi concept using the GRS 15 and the little Vifa.... then there is the grown up higher efficiency and out put dual GRS 15 version with very different mid and tweeter 3 way set up. And there is kind of an ultimate Manzi two way using a very interesting high out put 18" from the pro side of Peerless - Tymphany and a Tang Band 5" class full range.
OK... done teasing! Look forward to seeing you there! John
Want to do a couple of boxes.... very small to medium in size. Like 7 Liter and 30 liter net internal volume. One ported, and one sealed. Want to present a couple of competitive system(s) for a real world total price of $5 K or less. By system(s) I mean turn key, amp, CD player, cables, stands. The whole and complete enchilada. As in .... plug and play!!
However....
My roots are OB... Duh! So I have to decide which of several promising project to bring. I have an updated original Manzi concept using the GRS 15 and the little Vifa.... then there is the grown up higher efficiency and out put dual GRS 15 version with very different mid and tweeter 3 way set up. And there is kind of an ultimate Manzi two way using a very interesting high out put 18" from the pro side of Peerless - Tymphany and a Tang Band 5" class full range.
OK... done teasing! Look forward to seeing you there! John
Vifa-Peerless Rear Relief Shape
Have heard some concerns that in creating airflow for the fullranger on the baffle rear, to avoid creating a horn cavity. I used a 45deg router bit as deeply as practical, and looking at the Manzanita commercial site gallery, John did much the same for the little Vifa. If additional space or a more irregular shape helps, I would give it a try.
Adding the woofer trap circuit soon. Will first listen for an audible difference in the GRS alone, given that I can now hear more lower-mid sound than seems optimal.
Cam
Have heard some concerns that in creating airflow for the fullranger on the baffle rear, to avoid creating a horn cavity. I used a 45deg router bit as deeply as practical, and looking at the Manzanita commercial site gallery, John did much the same for the little Vifa. If additional space or a more irregular shape helps, I would give it a try.
Adding the woofer trap circuit soon. Will first listen for an audible difference in the GRS alone, given that I can now hear more lower-mid sound than seems optimal.
Cam
I've noticed that the rear radiation of the mid-tweet sounds very different from the front, and it's not very pleasant. John made mention of this many posts ago but didn't expand on the subject, other than to say there are several reasons. I intend to modify the rear opening to minimize the influence of its size and shape, but it would be really useful to know what John can add to this issue.
Another ploy would be to use a simple felt layer to absorb some of the worst of it. Seems a relatively harmless approach. A question is, do we want the whole mid-tweet spectrum to radiate and reflect into the listening area, or are parts of the sound more beneficial than others?
Cam
Another ploy would be to use a simple felt layer to absorb some of the worst of it. Seems a relatively harmless approach. A question is, do we want the whole mid-tweet spectrum to radiate and reflect into the listening area, or are parts of the sound more beneficial than others?
Cam
OK... Rear radiation issues with the Vifa...
There are a lot of things going on. The key to it all is the combination of the front radiation frequency and patterns (power response) and the rear equivalent.
We all know the Vifa has a rising (forward) response. So much so it requires a trap to flatten it out. On the rear side of things, we have that nasty magnet structure and frame to deal with. These physical features act as an accoustical filter. And that turns out to be a good thing. We do not want a lot of rear energy output above 5-7 K. With those shorter wave lengths, we get a scattered response. Something Mr. Bose (god forbid) figured out with his designs. So, the rear Vifa output does, on its own, sounds funky. The Manzanita uses what is there that contributes. The magnet assembly acts as a contributing mechanical filter. Enough rear energy at in a beneficial frequency range supporting good imaging and over all power response, but with out the upper HF splatter. Neat!
All we need to do out back is provide the rear output of the Vifa with as practical as possible close refection free environment. That is why we include the radius cut out on the rear of the baffle.
Hope this all make sense!
There are a lot of things going on. The key to it all is the combination of the front radiation frequency and patterns (power response) and the rear equivalent.
We all know the Vifa has a rising (forward) response. So much so it requires a trap to flatten it out. On the rear side of things, we have that nasty magnet structure and frame to deal with. These physical features act as an accoustical filter. And that turns out to be a good thing. We do not want a lot of rear energy output above 5-7 K. With those shorter wave lengths, we get a scattered response. Something Mr. Bose (god forbid) figured out with his designs. So, the rear Vifa output does, on its own, sounds funky. The Manzanita uses what is there that contributes. The magnet assembly acts as a contributing mechanical filter. Enough rear energy at in a beneficial frequency range supporting good imaging and over all power response, but with out the upper HF splatter. Neat!
All we need to do out back is provide the rear output of the Vifa with as practical as possible close refection free environment. That is why we include the radius cut out on the rear of the baffle.
Hope this all make sense!