Thanks Pano, the tricky part is that I have no wall behind. I have a central fireplace that divides the living room from the dining room and a hallway on both sides. The speakers are in the hallway so to say. That being said, I think it's a preamp issue. My preamp recently died and so I pressed my Cambridge integrated into service as a pre. It simply doesn't have enough gain and feels like a wet blanket has been thrown over everything. I have since swapped in a Yamaha ax700u and an Nad 7240 into the mix and it is muuuuuuch better.
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Pesky inductors
I used the 14 Ga. because I use those as a standard, and with the inductor in series with the mid-tweet inductor wire size and resistance does mater. It has been my experience that the inductor is usually with weakest component in a good passive crossover. Caps you can bypass. I can hear the difference between and 18 ga. and a 14 and a 12 and so on. Most pronounced in the lower mid range. Clarity... minimal ringing. Play some well recorded piano and it will show you in a hurry, even with a simple low cost design like the Manzi. Don't get the wrong idea, the 18 is not bad, just the larger ga. is better. Once you get larger that 14, the cost sky rockets.
I used the 14 Ga. because I use those as a standard, and with the inductor in series with the mid-tweet inductor wire size and resistance does mater. It has been my experience that the inductor is usually with weakest component in a good passive crossover. Caps you can bypass. I can hear the difference between and 18 ga. and a 14 and a 12 and so on. Most pronounced in the lower mid range. Clarity... minimal ringing. Play some well recorded piano and it will show you in a hurry, even with a simple low cost design like the Manzi. Don't get the wrong idea, the 18 is not bad, just the larger ga. is better. Once you get larger that 14, the cost sky rockets.
Hi,
I am going to build the Manzanita (regular one on stands) with the GRS woofer. I have the drivers, the crossover components are on their way. I am from Belgium and shipping was expensive from parts-express so I ordered 4 GRS woofers and 4 TC9's so I can build 2 pairs of speakers, after I build the small manzanita and if I like it I will build the Ultra. I was about to order the inductors also from parts-express but they were a lot cheaper to buy in europe (maybe copper is cheaper in europe?).
I now have to decide what wood I am going to use, in this case with open baffle the baffle material is most important I suppose.
I am thinking about high quality pine plywood, baltic birch plywood (expensive) or solid pine/spruce/oak furniture panel. Are there big sonic differences between these materials or is it subtle differences?
The baffle thickness is advised 0.7" minimum, is there an advantage to having a 1" or 1.4" thick baffle? I was thinking about glueing 2 panels together for the baffle to increase thickness?
Pieter
I am going to build the Manzanita (regular one on stands) with the GRS woofer. I have the drivers, the crossover components are on their way. I am from Belgium and shipping was expensive from parts-express so I ordered 4 GRS woofers and 4 TC9's so I can build 2 pairs of speakers, after I build the small manzanita and if I like it I will build the Ultra. I was about to order the inductors also from parts-express but they were a lot cheaper to buy in europe (maybe copper is cheaper in europe?).
I now have to decide what wood I am going to use, in this case with open baffle the baffle material is most important I suppose.
I am thinking about high quality pine plywood, baltic birch plywood (expensive) or solid pine/spruce/oak furniture panel. Are there big sonic differences between these materials or is it subtle differences?
The baffle thickness is advised 0.7" minimum, is there an advantage to having a 1" or 1.4" thick baffle? I was thinking about glueing 2 panels together for the baffle to increase thickness?
Pieter
Hello Pieter...
Thank you for your interest in the Manzanita and Ultra! There is a lot of flexibility in construction materials as long as all joints are secure and rattle - buzz free.
.75" is all that is needed for either speaker. Too much thickness can be an issue, especially with the Vifa. The amount of depth behind the Vifa can restrict and reflect the rear output radiation. Not good. I think your best approach to the wood you use will be driven by your cosmetic priorities. For example, for something simple with a painted or glue on veneer surfaces, 3/4" MDF works fine. If you want more of furniture appearance you could use any solid wood, or layers of same to get to the .75" thickness.
The nice thing about the 15" is that it has enough surface area that medium 2-5 MM excursions are sufficient for most bass requirements and that amount of movement is easily handled with .75" baffle thickness.
Please let us know how your project evolves and good luck!
Best
Thank you for your interest in the Manzanita and Ultra! There is a lot of flexibility in construction materials as long as all joints are secure and rattle - buzz free.
.75" is all that is needed for either speaker. Too much thickness can be an issue, especially with the Vifa. The amount of depth behind the Vifa can restrict and reflect the rear output radiation. Not good. I think your best approach to the wood you use will be driven by your cosmetic priorities. For example, for something simple with a painted or glue on veneer surfaces, 3/4" MDF works fine. If you want more of furniture appearance you could use any solid wood, or layers of same to get to the .75" thickness.
The nice thing about the 15" is that it has enough surface area that medium 2-5 MM excursions are sufficient for most bass requirements and that amount of movement is easily handled with .75" baffle thickness.
Please let us know how your project evolves and good luck!
Best
Inductors
Pieter, I will watch your build with great interest. I have been drooling over this thread for a while now and I am also planning to build the standard Manzanitas next year, if possible. I already have the TC9FD drivers and also access to the GRS woofers, and even other woofers very similar to the GRS.
My biggest hurdle will be the inductors. Cannot find them locally - even if copper is probably the cheapest here in Africa. So with the help of another forum member I started looking into winding them myself. But I don't have access to an oscilloscope - so making and measuring the inductors accurately is a problem and another diy project on its own.
Can you point me to the cheaper supplier in Europe please? In the end I would prefer to get the real deal inductors.
Pieter, I will watch your build with great interest. I have been drooling over this thread for a while now and I am also planning to build the standard Manzanitas next year, if possible. I already have the TC9FD drivers and also access to the GRS woofers, and even other woofers very similar to the GRS.
My biggest hurdle will be the inductors. Cannot find them locally - even if copper is probably the cheapest here in Africa. So with the help of another forum member I started looking into winding them myself. But I don't have access to an oscilloscope - so making and measuring the inductors accurately is a problem and another diy project on its own.
Can you point me to the cheaper supplier in Europe please? In the end I would prefer to get the real deal inductors.
Im a little confused here. The tweeter has been changed to a unit that can go much lower than the original dome, yet using the same basic crossover? Do I have that right?
The reason I ask is a desire to try this arraignment with a crossover around 500hz. Will the woofers response work well with a handoff in this area or is the natural rolloff of the woofer figured into original design using a handoff more around 1500hz??
And BTW what thinkest thow bout this woofer..is the Qt too low??
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-534--dayton-audio-DSA315-8-specifications.pdf
Thought is it may have a bit better resolution than the paper types above 500 hz?
The reason I ask is a desire to try this arraignment with a crossover around 500hz. Will the woofers response work well with a handoff in this area or is the natural rolloff of the woofer figured into original design using a handoff more around 1500hz??
And BTW what thinkest thow bout this woofer..is the Qt too low??
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-534--dayton-audio-DSA315-8-specifications.pdf
Thought is it may have a bit better resolution than the paper types above 500 hz?
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The original Manzanita using the Seas TDFC was intended for near field listening in smaller rooms at modest levels for as low a build cost as practical. However, there were some compromises to do that. One was a broad dip in the upper mid-range and second was the limited clean out put. The result was a laid back, but detail response that provided solid bass to 40 Hz.
The next evolution used the Scan Speak D3806 (1.5") mid - tweet that proved to be a major improvement. However the cost of this driver, already pretty expensive at $70 each more than double in a years time. Minimal crossover change was required as the added output of the D3806 just help fill in the lower mid-range.
The Vifa T9 replaced the D3806 at a much lower cost of around $12 each and has proven to be the best match for either the Peerless 12" or the GRS 15". Again, crossover changes are minimal, but the Vifa can benefit from a trap to flatten out the upper treble.
As for the PE Aluminum 12". It can be made to work, but with it's low QTS, limited volume of displacement and relatively high cost it can't compete with the GRS. It may offer a bit more resolution in the 400 - 1,200 Hz range, but can't out do the little Vifa. Plus you are trying to get aluminum and paper to speak with the same voice.
Bottom line, is you would need to do some not so easy crossover work to get the Aluminum 12 and the Vifa to sing. Hope this all make sense.
The next evolution used the Scan Speak D3806 (1.5") mid - tweet that proved to be a major improvement. However the cost of this driver, already pretty expensive at $70 each more than double in a years time. Minimal crossover change was required as the added output of the D3806 just help fill in the lower mid-range.
The Vifa T9 replaced the D3806 at a much lower cost of around $12 each and has proven to be the best match for either the Peerless 12" or the GRS 15". Again, crossover changes are minimal, but the Vifa can benefit from a trap to flatten out the upper treble.
As for the PE Aluminum 12". It can be made to work, but with it's low QTS, limited volume of displacement and relatively high cost it can't compete with the GRS. It may offer a bit more resolution in the 400 - 1,200 Hz range, but can't out do the little Vifa. Plus you are trying to get aluminum and paper to speak with the same voice.
Bottom line, is you would need to do some not so easy crossover work to get the Aluminum 12 and the Vifa to sing. Hope this all make sense.
"As for the PE Aluminum 12". It can be made to work, but with it's low QTS, limited volume of displacement and relatively high cost it can't compete with the GRS. It may offer a bit more resolution in the 400 - 1,200 Hz range, but can't out do the little Vifa. Plus you are trying to get aluminum and paper to speak with the same voice. "
I hear ya. My intention was to build a simple dipole with a ribbon I have that can get to 500 hz. I have played with this in past but didnt spend enough time in design/test to get it all worked out. What I do remember was I came away with idea that the range 500-1.5k on the woofer just didnt match the ribbon well and that the Qts was an issue with the woofer I was using. Bass seemed weak.
Perhaps asking for a woofer large enough to do the bass well BUT hand off to the ribbon may be a real problem??
I hear ya. My intention was to build a simple dipole with a ribbon I have that can get to 500 hz. I have played with this in past but didnt spend enough time in design/test to get it all worked out. What I do remember was I came away with idea that the range 500-1.5k on the woofer just didnt match the ribbon well and that the Qts was an issue with the woofer I was using. Bass seemed weak.
Perhaps asking for a woofer large enough to do the bass well BUT hand off to the ribbon may be a real problem??
Finding a ribbon that will play flat to 400-500 Hz and handle a decent amount of power for a reasonable amount of money is difficult. And then there is the voice matching issue. You can try to blend the two, but that takes a good 2 to 3 octave overlap. Not easy with a larger woofer with respectable Xmax and high QTS. Again, not that it can't be done, but will take a lot of work and moola to get it right. Not trying to discourage you, but a two way OB that sings is not easy.
Yes
I have the ribbons, no issue there.
I have built a number of two way open baffle designs but they all used planer magnetic bass diaphragms that took care of the bass rise in tuning AND were no issue with that area 500 -1.5 k that so many large woofers struggle with.
I guess im fishing for thoughts on large woofers to take place of the planer bass. Ive looked for 8 inch woofers with highish Qts and thinking multiples havent found any.
Pano - it is not that I really WANT to wind my own, it is more from a frugal build point of view. So, you are saying that winding your own inductors are a viable option here? Yes, there are calculators that gives the number of winds for air core, but then I still need to wind the iron cores (and try to find the right cores), and no way to measure the actual inductance. Not sure if it is worth the effort. My problem is that o'scope/inductance/impedance meters will probably cost more than just importing the inductors I need for this build, whether from the USA or Europe. Thanks.
Thanks for that Pieter - I will investigate the dutch supplier.
Looking forward to see your build and listening impressions.
Thanks Johno - I had a look at your crossovers. Man, they are huge! Good to know the results are great. I am still unsure about this whole diy winding project. Could be a good investment - all that copper must be worth a few $ (and climbing, like bitcoin).
Finished up the Ultras about a month a go and have been listening to them in my very large
listening room. (the back wall is 21ft - side walls 30ft +) So large speakers are called for.
The Ultras fit in quite well. I love having 15" woofer drivers. You don't realize how much of
the bottom octave you are missing using smaller speakers.
I'm not going to bore you with setup notes - suffice to say the overall sound is a very
pleasing amount of tuneful bass and one GIANT sound stage! Sitting in the sweet spot
and listening to Bjork's Vespertine album is a religious experience Track 10 - Heirloom
is just amazing.
These aren't perfect speakers. But for less than $300.00 USD... please! I'm sure as they
continue to break in and i dial in proper speaker position - they will only improve.
Bravo guys! just about the most fun i've had in DYI - and isn't that what it's all about?
listening room. (the back wall is 21ft - side walls 30ft +) So large speakers are called for.
The Ultras fit in quite well. I love having 15" woofer drivers. You don't realize how much of
the bottom octave you are missing using smaller speakers.
I'm not going to bore you with setup notes - suffice to say the overall sound is a very
pleasing amount of tuneful bass and one GIANT sound stage! Sitting in the sweet spot
and listening to Bjork's Vespertine album is a religious experience
Track 10 - Heirloomis just amazing.
These aren't perfect speakers. But for less than $300.00 USD... please! I'm sure as they
continue to break in and i dial in proper speaker position - they will only improve.
Bravo guys! just about the most fun i've had in DYI - and isn't that what it's all about?
You can buy an LCR meter for $40 here in the States from several sources. I have tested the one I got from Apexjr against a calibrated B&K. It's fine. You can experiment with different ferrous 'bits' to make your iron-cores.
I use standard bolts for reproducibility. You can even make an adjustable inductor, fixing a nut to your proto board and running a bolt in and out of the coil. I have some old waxed air cores from an old Grundig crossover, two were mounted with stainless bolts for no change, two with plated steel bolts, otherwise identical. The magnetic iron bolts increased inductance by about a fourth in this case.
So a meter opens up all sorts of possibilities, especially for reusing old bits and checking new ones. Check around on shipping with all the usual suspects(apex,pe, mcm-now newark14,etc).
I'll see what private shipping costs, although I suspect customs issues are easier with business originated packages. But I'll send it if you've no other options. It really will make your life easier.
Best, David
I use standard bolts for reproducibility. You can even make an adjustable inductor, fixing a nut to your proto board and running a bolt in and out of the coil. I have some old waxed air cores from an old Grundig crossover, two were mounted with stainless bolts for no change, two with plated steel bolts, otherwise identical. The magnetic iron bolts increased inductance by about a fourth in this case.
So a meter opens up all sorts of possibilities, especially for reusing old bits and checking new ones. Check around on shipping with all the usual suspects(apex,pe, mcm-now newark14,etc).
I'll see what private shipping costs, although I suspect customs issues are easier with business originated packages. But I'll send it if you've no other options. It really will make your life easier.
Best, David