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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Celestion G 12-p80  **seventy Eighty**
Celestion G 12-p80  **seventy Eighty**
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Old 8th December 2010, 01:58 AM   #11
mondogenerator is offline mondogenerator  England
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i have just done something similar. I have a used Hartke 4x10" bass cab. ditched the speakers(read sold to a friend), and replaced them with 4 of G10M ~10" celestion 'greenbacks'. I must say that when they arrived, i was actually very impressed with the fabric dustcap and general quality of the drivers. (I got them at something like 35% discount in bargain corner of CPC btw).

I found something quite bizarre though. the bass is ridiculous. i could probably play a bass guitar through these things and get a good sound, albeit at 'non-concert' levels where im sure theyd run out of xmax. initial listening it was clear i had to block the 4" port up.......but closed box was much more 'flat', and rounded.

I found them incredibly warm, and smooth sounding. I had to back the bass control to about 9 o'clock, to get the 'crunchy' thrashy hardcore type sound the OP mentioned. The tone from these speakers on my DM120 watt valve head, is like cream. hit the +15dB button and crank the gain right up, and heavy is not nearly an appropriate enough word!
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Last edited by mondogenerator; 8th December 2010 at 02:03 AM.
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Old 13th December 2010, 11:15 AM   #12
Gboutique is offline Gboutique  Venezuela
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Default Laney 4x12 Cab

Hi folks,
Just decided to register on this forum to make some questions about my gear. I have a Laney GS412IS cabinet loaded with 4 Celestion Seventy 80 (original), its main purpose is to use this as part of my equipment for the test of effects and mods I do in my studio. specifically with overdrives and distortions.
I have understood that Celestion Seventy 80 is an all purpose speaker, and though the sound is good, tend to emphasize the bass frequencies. Now, with the understanding that 4x12 cabs should be closed, I think the solution might be to buy 2 different speakers and combine these with the Seventy 80 to compensate and achieve a better balance.

What brand and model of speakers could achieve this, any help or suggestions?

PS: The total power of my cabinet is 320W and the impedance is 16 ohms, I understand that if you use lower wattage speakers total power is reduced, but this is not a problem because my tube amplifier is 50W.

Thank a lot,
Carlos.
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Old 18th December 2010, 01:56 PM   #13
alan-1-b is offline alan-1-b  United Kingdom
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Default cabinet size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Substitute View Post
Hi Alan
You're right, I should be trashing a HiWatt, not using a Peavey, but got to look after my back mate!
First of all, thanks for the reply, hopefully this is the info you need:
There's no impedance switch, but the Peavey extension cab that goes with this amp (the one I can't find anywhere) is a Peavey 112e which is 16ohm.
Speaker in the combo is a Peavey Blue Marvel pro performance rated 16ohm
Number underneath is 70777144 (means nothing to me though!)
On the back of the amp case (near speaker ext socket) it says 30 watts 22vRMS 16 ohm minimum load.

The Marshall is open back but I intend to close it off as I've heard that would be better, but the peavey combo is open back.

Hope all this helps!
Thanks again
Duncan

www.substitute.org.uk
Hi Duncan,

well, re-reading my earlier post to you I see I got 2 words wrong from the song, but hey you're still talking to me, and you're in a Mod band
... now surely you know those lyrics ... but wot's 2 words eh !

Now about this Peavey business and your back ... 'ave a look around and you will see that HIWATT now 'ave Combo amps !
... so you can flog that Peavey off to some Mark Knopfler type tosser and get the real thing, or at least get a VOX - those are liftable !!

'orright, I'll be serious now.
It seems that your Peavey is designed to accept a 16 ohm extension speaker, thus the G12P in 16 ohms will work.

About cabinets, open and closed back, my experience is similar to that posted by Chris661 {following your last post}.
For closed back the cabinet needs to be at least 40 litres internal volume to minimize that bass problem he described,
AND the ratio of internal Width : Height : Depth needs to be not a cube or 2 dimensions as harmonic multiples of the first,
thus what are the internal dimensions of the cabinet you are hoping to use ?

If significantly less than 40 litres {about 1.4 cubic feet} internal, then an open back can give a more even bass response,
though a bit less punch to the sound.
An open back cabinet should not be very deep {front to back} or the sound will get a bit honky around a small region of the lower midrange.
The front to back depth of most good sounding open backed combo amps is obviously close to the optimum.

My Peavey 12" is a "Sheffield 1230", which is apparently a 70 watt speaker.
It sounds a little bass-light in an open back cab. , but it has the characteristic sound of a 1.5" voice-coil speaker,
thus as the G12P has 1.75" voice-coil it should have a bit better bass oomph in the right open back cab. ,
but as it has a slightly smaller magnet than the classic M series Celestions it will not likely match them for bass oomph.

Peavey's Sheffield 1230 was made in the USA, but I think from Celestion parts, because it sounds very much like the Celestion G12M-70.
{G12M-70 was not a classic M series Celestion.
It was a more powerful upgrade of Celestion's G12-50 lower priced alternate to the then classic M model G12-65.}

I do not know if I've heard a Peavey Blue Marvel 12" live,
though various USA players have posted in Forums that they like them,
thus in combination with the G12P you may have an interesting sound !

Anyway, post the internal dimensions of the cab. you are considering, and I'll comment some more.
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Last edited by alan-1-b; 18th December 2010 at 02:17 PM. Reason: to correct a spelling mistake
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Old 18th December 2010, 02:37 PM   #14
alan-1-b is offline alan-1-b  United Kingdom
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Default try this model

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gboutique View Post

I have understood that Celestion Seventy 80 is an all purpose speaker, and though the sound is good, tend to emphasize the bass frequencies. Now, with the understanding that 4x12 cabs should be closed, I think the solution might be to buy 2 different speakers and combine these with the Seventy 80 to compensate and achieve a better balance.

What brand and model of speakers could achieve this, any help or suggestions?

Thank a lot,
Carlos.
Hi Carlos,

the speaker I would listen to in combination with yours is Celestion's G12T-75,
because it is a bit brighter sounding in upper midrange and treble than seems to be the G12P.

Put two G12T-75 in 16 ohm versions in the upper positions in your quad box, and two G12P in the lower postions.
Connect the two Ts in electrical Series, and the two Ps in electrical Series, then connect the two Series pairs in electrical Parallel,
and you will have a total load of 16 ohms.

Connecting each of the same type together in Series causes the power to be better distributed to the drivers,
than when two of different types are in Series.
Different types usually work better when connected in Parallel,
but if you want to experiment and hear sound options yourself, then try other connections,
so long as your final connection is Series/Parallel so as to sum to 16 ohms.

G12T is a 75 watt speaker.
If it's price exceeds your budget, and you can't find good condition used samples, then try the G12M-70 that I described in the Post above,
because it is quite good in midrange and treble, and needs only a bit more bass, which your G12Ps will provide.
I do not know if it is still available new - you may have to look for good condition used samples.

Another good Celestion model which you might find used samples of in good condition is the G12-65, a 65 watt speaker.
It was the power uprated version of the original 25 watt version of G12M years ago.
I have some G12Ms with the 65 cones and voice-coils fitted. The sound is good through all of bass, midrange, and treble.
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Last edited by alan-1-b; 18th December 2010 at 02:43 PM. Reason: to better space some sentances
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Old 18th December 2010, 02:38 PM   #15
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan-1-b View Post
Hi Duncan,

.......

About cabinets, open and closed back, my experience is similar to that posted by Chris661 {following your last post}.
For closed back the cabinet needs to be at least 40 litres internal volume to minimize that bass problem he described,
AND the ratio of internal Width : Height : Depth needs to be not a cube or 2 dimensions as harmonic multiples of the first,
thus what are the internal dimensions of the cabinet you are hoping to use ?
......
I'm glad it's not just me.

I didn't consider cabinet volume when making my extension speaker (figured there'd be little need, for guitar use. I just made it to be the same front area as my combo amp, but about twice as deep.

Something I'd recommend when using a solid state amplifier:
add an output transformer. 1:1 ratio. A transformer with a centre-tapped secondary will do (I used a 12-0-12 torodial).
Anyway, it sounds really amazing. Most of us have such transformers lying around. I tried 3, each with their own sound, before picking the 12-0-12. Another had better sound, but it was over double the weight. Not good for teenager drag-it-anywhere use.

Anyway...
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Old 18th December 2010, 02:54 PM   #16
alan-1-b is offline alan-1-b  United Kingdom
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Default internal dimensions ?

Hi Chris,

what are the internal dimensions of your open backed cabinet ?

If I've understood your earlier post correctly you have a single speaker in the cabinet..?

I have heard part of that transformer idea before, but never tried it because my guitar amps are valve,
however I will mention the idea to anyone with a solid state amp who wants a change but cannot afford a valve amp.

Where did you connect the centre-tap to ?
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Last edited by alan-1-b; 18th December 2010 at 02:56 PM. Reason: to add a phrase
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Old 18th December 2010, 03:29 PM   #17
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Hi,

I have two parts to my rig... A 1x10" combo amp, and a 1x12" extension cab
The extension speaker is 14"x15"x8 1/2" hwd. The combo amplifier is around 5" deep. Anyway, there's details over in the last post on my blog if you'd like to know more. Here..

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs...itar-amps.html

I know the first one is a bit dark, but here's a couple of snaps.

An externally hosted image should be here but it no longer works. Please upload images instead of linking to them to prevent this.


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... and the second one's blury.

Here's a wiring diagram on how to connect up the output transformer (see attached).

Chris

PS - I'll try to get some sound clips out there at some point.

Edit - on the diagram below,
the negative is the centre tap of the transformer. The amplifier is connected to one end, the speaker connected to the other.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg diya.JPG (25.3 KB, 53 views)
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Last edited by chris661; 18th December 2010 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 13th February 2011, 07:13 PM   #18
Gboutique is offline Gboutique  Venezuela
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan-1-b View Post
Hi Carlos,

the speaker I would listen to in combination with yours is Celestion's G12T-75,
because it is a bit brighter sounding in upper midrange and treble than seems to be the G12P.

Put two G12T-75 in 16 ohm versions in the upper positions in your quad box, and two G12P in the lower postions.
Connect the two Ts in electrical Series, and the two Ps in electrical Series, then connect the two Series pairs in electrical Parallel,
and you will have a total load of 16 ohms.
.
Hi Alan,

Let me first thank you for your pots, you seem to be a connoisseur of Celestion speaker .. Your idea is good..!!

I have only one doubt about this, as I said earlier, I use my cabinet along with several amps (Fender, Marshall, Peavey and Krank) for testing purposes (I built and / or modify effects), the idea of the Celestion Seventy 80 is that they serve well for many purposes. Are G12Ts the same?, I know that these are well recognized for Marshall´s, but what about Metal?

In any case, what do you think of the Celestion Vintage 30 ?

Thanks,
Carlos.
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Old 13th February 2011, 08:33 PM   #19
Keriwena is offline Keriwena  United States
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From working in a guitar shop for the last ten years, my opinions are thus:

Neither the G12T-75 and Vintage 30 are neutral. The 75 is mid-scooped, and the 30 has an upper-mid hump. Their character will work well with each of your amps except the Fender, which won't sound so much like a Fender anymore, and that's why you have it, right?

The G12T-75 has a bad rep among tweakers, simply because it's so common. But that's the very reason you should have one in your stable for testing purposes. Most players don't trade out the speakers in their Marshalls.

The Vintage 30 is the darling of the metal crowd, and again, if you're making a "Metal Madness" pedal, it needs to be tested with a V-30 as that's most likely what your target audience will be using.


HTH,
Keri
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Old 14th February 2011, 09:03 PM   #20
mondogenerator is offline mondogenerator  England
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very concise Keriwena. I wonder what you would make of my 4x10 Hartke bass cab, port sealed up, with 4 x G10 10" 'greenbacks', in a 3-4 cubic ft cab?
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