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I am looking for the best pure midrange (~400hz to 1500~2000hz, final passband is dependant on integration with compression driver) solution. This speaker is meant for subjective listening excellence and will be a substitute until I have time to truly sit down and engineer my ambitious ESL project. I listen to a lot of progressive metal (ie TOOL, Dream Theater, NIN although they arent quite in the same genre) which in themselves introduce large amounts of favorable distortion. I do NOT want the speaker to rip these recordings to shreds, remember this speaker is meant for listening enjoyment.
I do not have a price limit, although a large increase in price for marginal improvement is hard to justify. The PHL 1120 look excellent ($120 at Zalytron), but would something lk an 18sounds 10NdA520 ($225) or 10NdA610 ($238) which possess AIC (Active Impendance Control) be a much better solution?
I will be tri-amping with large proamps and am considering a PC XO for DRC and FIR filters if I can get the software cheap enough.
I will be crossing to a BMS 4540ND (have not decided which waveguide I will be mating with it) on the topend and a Ciare 18.00NdW1 on the lowend (exhibits the first breakup node between 1600-1700hz, so 3rd harmonic of this peak should lie smack dab in the 500hz range, 530-570). A high efficiency driver seems like an obvious choice since it will be used between two of them.
I am looking for the best pure midrange (~400hz to 1500~2000hz, final passband is dependant on integration with compression driver) solution. This speaker is meant for subjective listening excellence and will be a substitute until I have time to truly sit down and engineer my ambitious ESL project. I listen to a lot of progressive metal (ie TOOL, Dream Theater, NIN although they arent quite in the same genre) which in themselves introduce large amounts of favorable distortion. I do NOT want the speaker to rip these recordings to shreds, remember this speaker is meant for listening enjoyment.
I do not have a price limit, although a large increase in price for marginal improvement is hard to justify. The PHL 1120 look excellent ($120 at Zalytron), but would something lk an 18sounds 10NdA520 ($225) or 10NdA610 ($238) which possess AIC (Active Impendance Control) be a much better solution?
I will be tri-amping with large proamps and am considering a PC XO for DRC and FIR filters if I can get the software cheap enough.
I will be crossing to a BMS 4540ND (have not decided which waveguide I will be mating with it) on the topend and a Ciare 18.00NdW1 on the lowend (exhibits the first breakup node between 1600-1700hz, so 3rd harmonic of this peak should lie smack dab in the 500hz range, 530-570). A high efficiency driver seems like an obvious choice since it will be used between two of them.
PHL1120 has not quite a good CSD.
Have a look on this thread, many references have been mentioned.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97830&perpage=10&pagenumber=1
Have a look on this thread, many references have been mentioned.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97830&perpage=10&pagenumber=1
It was not mentioned in the linked thread, have a look at the Ciare 10.64 NdMR. It is a pure midrange (fs 141Hz) with >97dB above 400Hz@2.83V. A little resonance at 2.3kHz, but even at that frequency a very fast decay. Harmonic Distortion <0.3%@90dB for all orders. 243€ in Germany.
Another really good one is the Celestion TF1020, little higher distortion, less SPL (96dB above 300Hz@2.83V), but better dispersion than the Ciare. Only 92€ in Germany.
Baseballbatboy
Another really good one is the Celestion TF1020, little higher distortion, less SPL (96dB above 300Hz@2.83V), but better dispersion than the Ciare. Only 92€ in Germany.
Baseballbatboy
This depends a LOT on what type of sound you want..
1. Obviously you want details (to compete with an esl), THAT suggests a high eff. driver (for its sd).
2. IF you want something that presents a more "holographic" sound then look for a low mass driver (for a given sd), AND a relatively small sd.
Unfortunately 1 & 2 are at cross purposes, especially if you want high output in addition to 1 & 2.
My suggestion will net you all 3 (with a steep high pass), and you can impove upon the decay character somewhat with some driver modification.
FE126E X4 per side connected in series/parallel. This will "lift" the response around 480 Hz or so to compensate for the loss in spl the driver naturally has (..and as a result should give a moderately flat freq. response in your intended passband). I'd recommend open baffle to get the best sound with the least work. Use the "Edge" software program to get a good open baffle configuration.
Note that the FE126E even with modification has a modest problem just above 1 kHz.. BUT that doesn't seem to deter people from liking the driver.
For a moderately unbiased subjective opinion read Troel's comments here:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/FE126E.htm
Contact Dave (Planet10) for details on driver modification if you are interested.
for the horn - take a look at Paul W's MusicSupplyCenter waveguide here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90804&perpage=10&pagenumber=13
1. Obviously you want details (to compete with an esl), THAT suggests a high eff. driver (for its sd).
2. IF you want something that presents a more "holographic" sound then look for a low mass driver (for a given sd), AND a relatively small sd.
Unfortunately 1 & 2 are at cross purposes, especially if you want high output in addition to 1 & 2.
My suggestion will net you all 3 (with a steep high pass), and you can impove upon the decay character somewhat with some driver modification.
FE126E X4 per side connected in series/parallel. This will "lift" the response around 480 Hz or so to compensate for the loss in spl the driver naturally has (..and as a result should give a moderately flat freq. response in your intended passband). I'd recommend open baffle to get the best sound with the least work. Use the "Edge" software program to get a good open baffle configuration.
Note that the FE126E even with modification has a modest problem just above 1 kHz.. BUT that doesn't seem to deter people from liking the driver.
For a moderately unbiased subjective opinion read Troel's comments here:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/FE126E.htm
Contact Dave (Planet10) for details on driver modification if you are interested.
for the horn - take a look at Paul W's MusicSupplyCenter waveguide here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90804&perpage=10&pagenumber=13
I want a sound that best compliments the type of music I listen to (Progressive metal, ie TOOL), not necessarily micro details.
I read the entire large midrange for OB thread and am extremely curious on the use of the 18sound 15ND930/18ND930 (or other extremely large diameter drivers) in the upper range. How would a driver like this compare to a dedicated midrange?
I read the entire large midrange for OB thread and am extremely curious on the use of the 18sound 15ND930/18ND930 (or other extremely large diameter drivers) in the upper range. How would a driver like this compare to a dedicated midrange?
Here's the link to the PDF of the Celestion TF1020: http://professional.celestion.com/pro/products/pdf/TF1020.pdf
The frequency response and the impedance are nearly the same as the one in the german magazine Hobby HiFi, so I think you can trust them. Maybe I can give you a scan later, but don't expect too much, my scanner is lousy and the distortion graph does not have much contrast. I can give it a try.
The Ciare is in the same test. Here's the pdf, again the frequency response looks like in the test (although its a little bit louder): http://www.seeburg.net/1064NdMR_dt.pdf
Baseballbatboy
The frequency response and the impedance are nearly the same as the one in the german magazine Hobby HiFi, so I think you can trust them. Maybe I can give you a scan later, but don't expect too much, my scanner is lousy and the distortion graph does not have much contrast. I can give it a try.
The Ciare is in the same test. Here's the pdf, again the frequency response looks like in the test (although its a little bit louder): http://www.seeburg.net/1064NdMR_dt.pdf
Baseballbatboy
thadman said:
Not to be rude, but why would you even contemplate an esl project then? A really good coaxial compression driver like BMS has will provide all the detail of an esl WITH the dynamic and spl level handling that it won't provide (which will be FAR better with the music you prefer). If you like the dipole character then you can always "double up" and wire for phase correctly.
I chose the ESL as a project for various reasons:
I initially wanted a line array, but found it impossible to do within a budget. The CTC spacing would be impossible and only small midrange (4") and long ribbon tweeters ($$$) would be sufficient. The ESL project would be MUCH cheaper ($1000-1500 for two), and assuming I built it large enough and included a sizeable baffle, it would be nearly a perfect (objectively speaking) transducer. I modeled it in SLs spreadsheet with (~25" wide by 80" tall and .1mm xmax) and found 142dB at 600hz and 130dB at 300hz (crossover goal). Even if I didnt come close to xmax, the ESL wouldnt be dynamically limited...not by a longshot. It would provide a single coherent wavefront across nearly the entire spectrum and would have amazing directivity control over its entire passband.
I researched thoroughly and purchased the recommended ESL literature. I had spent countless hours reading and decided upon the parameters necessary to achieve the end result (d/s spacing, diaphragm thickness, etc etc etc)
The idea of constructing a transducer that I personally designed was quite fascinating also.
I dont have the time right now to double check my desired parameters, source the individual parts, and construct the speaker. This is why I'd like a go between speaker at the moment, to get my feet wet.
I initially wanted a line array, but found it impossible to do within a budget. The CTC spacing would be impossible and only small midrange (4") and long ribbon tweeters ($$$) would be sufficient. The ESL project would be MUCH cheaper ($1000-1500 for two), and assuming I built it large enough and included a sizeable baffle, it would be nearly a perfect (objectively speaking) transducer. I modeled it in SLs spreadsheet with (~25" wide by 80" tall and .1mm xmax) and found 142dB at 600hz and 130dB at 300hz (crossover goal). Even if I didnt come close to xmax, the ESL wouldnt be dynamically limited...not by a longshot. It would provide a single coherent wavefront across nearly the entire spectrum and would have amazing directivity control over its entire passband.
I researched thoroughly and purchased the recommended ESL literature. I had spent countless hours reading and decided upon the parameters necessary to achieve the end result (d/s spacing, diaphragm thickness, etc etc etc)
The idea of constructing a transducer that I personally designed was quite fascinating also.
I dont have the time right now to double check my desired parameters, source the individual parts, and construct the speaker. This is why I'd like a go between speaker at the moment, to get my feet wet.
linesource
You might consider finding some used BG 75's and building an open baffle like I did...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95603
They don't hit 130dB, but i do measure ~108dB @ 12 foot listening distance,(about as loud as my 50+ yr. old ears can take), the imaging is rock solid, and the sound quality has to be heard to be believed. Not sure I've maxed them out , as I just can't stand being in the room much louder, and my 2 sonotube subs are cracking plaster.
I've seen BG's going for quite a bit less than the $695 or so PE wants for new ones...(I got mine for half that including shipping) might also track down some ATC 25" like I found for $185 each... they're also pretty amazing @ ~94dB @ 1 watt
John L
You might consider finding some used BG 75's and building an open baffle like I did...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95603
They don't hit 130dB, but i do measure ~108dB @ 12 foot listening distance,(about as loud as my 50+ yr. old ears can take), the imaging is rock solid, and the sound quality has to be heard to be believed. Not sure I've maxed them out , as I just can't stand being in the room much louder, and my 2 sonotube subs are cracking plaster.
I've seen BG's going for quite a bit less than the $695 or so PE wants for new ones...(I got mine for half that including shipping) might also track down some ATC 25" like I found for $185 each... they're also pretty amazing @ ~94dB @ 1 watt
John L
I've already considered using those RD75s, they were what initially motivated me to do an ESL design (capable of being MUCH superior to the RD75). They arent recommended beyond 7000hz or so (beaming I believe) and like to be highpassed quite high...a lot more trouble than Im looking for in this project.
I'd like to go in an opposite direction with my approach to this design as with the ESL. This isnt necessarily "balls to the wall", just a great speaker.
I'd like to go in an opposite direction with my approach to this design as with the ESL. This isnt necessarily "balls to the wall", just a great speaker.
You didnt make a mistake, I did request a midrange it just doesnt fit my criteria and is too similar to my ambitious ESL project. Theyre expensive, large, and the CTC spacing would be incredibly difficult to achieve at such a high crossover point. They also exhibit line source behavior over part of their bandwidth which would require me to listen at a predetermined distance to blend well with the rest of the drivers.
RD 75's
That's cool...
I haven't experienced many of the "flaws" you quote from your reading. Mine are crossed over @ ~600 Hz.. run free on up... are augmented with leaf tweeters and the neoplanars as stated...
These have the best imaging and presentation of any of the multitude of speakers I've owned (and built) over 4 decades. Not sure what you mean by "blend well with the rest of the drivers", though. I can listen throughout the room with full localization of instruments being very stable, and the speakers essentially dissapear sonically..notwithstanding some readings to the contrary about "linesources"... my experience is based on actually listening to them. The cones/ribbons/domes all integrate very well, maybe because I paid attention to lobing patterns, baffle step, sensitivity, and crossover slopes (gentle)
cheers! and good luck.
John L
That's cool...
I haven't experienced many of the "flaws" you quote from your reading. Mine are crossed over @ ~600 Hz.. run free on up... are augmented with leaf tweeters and the neoplanars as stated...
These have the best imaging and presentation of any of the multitude of speakers I've owned (and built) over 4 decades. Not sure what you mean by "blend well with the rest of the drivers", though. I can listen throughout the room with full localization of instruments being very stable, and the speakers essentially dissapear sonically..notwithstanding some readings to the contrary about "linesources"... my experience is based on actually listening to them. The cones/ribbons/domes all integrate very well, maybe because I paid attention to lobing patterns, baffle step, sensitivity, and crossover slopes (gentle)
cheers! and good luck.
John L
How about Fostex ...FF165K or FF225K
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/FF-Series.shtml
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/FF-Series.shtml
I understood i should be used from 400hz-2000hz
It says here the 16" 416 altec is low frequency, band limited to 1600hz ????
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/specs/components/416-8b/page2.jpg
It says here the 16" 416 altec is low frequency, band limited to 1600hz ????
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/specs/components/416-8b/page2.jpg
A line array IS POSSIBLE for $1500
"The ESL project would be MUCH cheaper ($1000-1500 for two), .........."
You can build a line array for 1500 bucks. You need to used HiVi 3 inchers, and Dayton PT2 planars.
I built mine in 3 way configuration using 17 Sammi 3 inchers/ch(no longer available) which are slightly better than the HiVi's, 30 Dayton Neo 20Fa's/ch( with cut flanges to increase the comb distortion to above 15K or so), and one Goldsound $129 12 inch DVC woofer/ch.
I also did it with electronic crossovers and Tri amping.
Nothing in my midrange is distorted EVER!
Zarathu
"The ESL project would be MUCH cheaper ($1000-1500 for two), .........."
You can build a line array for 1500 bucks. You need to used HiVi 3 inchers, and Dayton PT2 planars.
I built mine in 3 way configuration using 17 Sammi 3 inchers/ch(no longer available) which are slightly better than the HiVi's, 30 Dayton Neo 20Fa's/ch( with cut flanges to increase the comb distortion to above 15K or so), and one Goldsound $129 12 inch DVC woofer/ch.
I also did it with electronic crossovers and Tri amping.
Nothing in my midrange is distorted EVER!
Zarathu
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