Making a bass cabinet, driver selection.

[ruerose]

Electric fretless bassist friend of mine wants me to make him a practise/small gig cab. I am thinking 2x10, but am open to anything.

Mainly acoustic folk rock, nothing heavy, just a percussionist at the moment.

I've not looked into pro-audio drivers before, took a look around the forum, but didn't find anything directly related to my quest.
I need a supplier and suggestions for a good 10" or otherwise to use in this cab. If I can forego a tweeter I will, I personally didn't think they added mutch to live electric bass anyways.

Want it to at least be SWR quality/durability. I am sure that is not very hard at all.

Thank you for your suggestions.

 

[croat47]

Len Moskowitz came up with a tidy little cab for portability and smooth response. I would like to try this or something similar:

http://www.core-sound.com/bottom-article.html

Peace.

 

[Brion55]

There are plenty of good drivers available but like everything else the choice is very subjective, everyone has their favorite. I personally like Electro-Voice, JBL or Eminence as my first choice, but have also used Celestion, Jensen and Pyle. There are other good brands that I’m not familiar with.

Here are some sources:

http://www.usspeaker.com/
http://www.sovtek.com/
http://www.mcminone.com/
http://www.partsexpress.com/
http://www.pyleaudio.com/

 

[ruerose]

Thanks for the excellent project link, exactly what I am looking for.

Problem is, there is no longer a Peerless 1759. What is the equivalent model for this? Even peerless archives dont seem to list this model.
No crosseover spec in that link either, but I can work around that.

Any other specific driver recommendations? Preferably stocked by solen.ca.

 

[Ahmad_tbp]

i would goin for two eminence LEGEND BP102 or two Celestion bl10-100 or 150 , usin a tweeter is all depends on the taste of player and the style , the players who r into slapin and popin would like it but i personaly never like it , as u said he s a fretless player that means he s not into slapin and popin , fretless bass has a very warm sound not that bright sound that need a tweeter , but after all it depends on taste , u can find tweeters , crossovers , t/s parameters , cab design software and suggestion cab for each speaker and everythin u want in eminence site , some eminence driveres are using by ampeg and fender for bass cabs , and marshall mostly uses celestion driver for both bass and guitars , ... many days ago i read somewhere that designin bass and guitar cabs much more depends on experience not on parameters that use in design of a hi fi or pa cab .. hope it helps

 

[Brion55]

Please remember that speakers for home or car audio are a different animal from musical instrument speakers.

 

[croat47]

Yeah, I can't find the 1759 either. The mid is still available at Madisound. Search for "len moskowitz" and it comes up. Madisound may also be able to suggest something in lieu of the 1759.

For more on the build, here is another execution: http://www.billsbest.com/thbasscab.html. He's got a cool bass he built also.

I've got some Eden drivers I'm looking to turn into something similar: small single driver portables.

Let us know if you find a 1759 replacement. Good luck!

 

[ruerose]

Convince me why I cannot use an XLS or and XXLS peerless as long as I make sure overexcursion is kept in check.

I've been doing small-club level PA for quite a while, so I know the obvious pitfalls.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3189912.23795&pid=828
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3189912.23795&pid=1787

Thinking about this one also:
http://www.usspeaker.com/hl-10A-1.htm

Just a little pricey for me though.

 

[wxn]

XLS will sound quite bad because of its rubber suspension. You will lose all the overtones and mid-range that is almost more important in bass playing than low bass itself. This might not be so obvious with a fretless but try slapping and popping (RHCP, Victor Wooten and others) through that XLS and compare to any commercial bass guitar cab.
I'd say specialised bass guitar drivers (like Eminence Gamma series) or PA woofers is the best (and the only) way to go.

 

[Brion55]

wxn is right. As a (retired) professional bass player, and one who always built my own bass rigs, I can tell you there is a reason why NO professional musical instrument amplifier builder uses rubber surround. Musical instrument speakers are quite "stiff" for a reason.

This is similar to the "stock" speakers in many amplifiers:
http://www.usspeaker.com/Legend105-1.htm


These would be better:

http://www.usspeaker.com/legend bp102-1.htm

http://www.usspeaker.com/LEGENDB102-1.htm

http://www.usspeaker.com/evm10dlx-1.htm

 

[raintalk]

rubber surrounds are OK. Best to use in a sealed enclosure. And with a 3 way design, like Acoustic Image. You'll need a lot of power to get SPL up, but high wattage amps are everywhere.

 

[wxn]

From the original post: "If I can forego a tweeter I will, I personally didn't think they added mutch to live electric bass anyways.". I don't think that a 3-way fits here

 

[raintalk]

then do a two-way (woofer/mid)

 

[ruerose]

Still not convinced from a technical standpoint.
Refrencing this article as posted above, not gospel but it is a counter opinion that makes sense and has worked for more than 2 people (based on web research:
http://www.core-sound.com/bottom-article.html
and
http://www.billsbest.com/thbasscab.html



High frequency response=I'll use a mid/tweet

Driver Efficency= Not important for my application, as long as it is reasonable. Read context.

Durability=I am not convinced a pleated paper surround is superior to a rubber one, not to mention excursion is FAR better on non-PA/SR type drivers in this application and price range

Sound/tone=I am not after a specific "tone" Linear response allows better flexibility, I do not want a SWR clone, but something better for this application.

To me most PA Sub drivers may seem durable enough, but from my perspective, they've been constructed with a certain logic that I find odd. A logic that dictates using old technology because of OEM replacement conveinence and familiarity.

Pleated paper surrounds that dry out, crack and tear, all for what? Ragged high frequency response and a few more DB of output? no thanks

Small magnet/motor/former/coil assemblies when compared to current spec subs for DIY applications.


Again, I am not an engineer, but for my application I am not convinced I HAVE to use a PA/bass driver.

I guess all I really want is a 1759 replacement. Same with a couple other poster's here hehe.

 

[wxn]

Well then just do it and tell us the results later.
Btw, I personally don't like the idea of more than one way cab because of possible phase problems, increased complexity (especially if you consider biamping). Same goes for ported cabs. A port adds a delay that can muddy things up.
And the excursion and stuff is not really needed that much. Bass cab is not a subwoofer and deep wall shaking bass is not what every bassist likes (I dont) so PA woofers are quite adequate.

 

[fdeck]

There is a long-standing tradeoff between low end response and sensitivity. The rule of "never use a autosound or subwoofer driver" goes back to when most mainstream bass speakers had high sensitivity and relatively high cutoff frequencies. And amps were wimpy. A subwoofer driver would result in a speaker with pathetically low sensitivity.

A new century dawns. Bassists and speaker manufacturers start experimenting with flat-response bass speakers, such as the Acme brand. Sure enough they have pathetically low sensitivity, but amps keep getting more powerful, so maybe it all comes out in the wash.

Some bassists, like me, can't stand the sound of flat speakers for our playing. Having experimented with flat speakers years ago, I found that the extended low end response interacts badly with typical room acoustics, meaning that a flat speaker is impractical for indoor use. And my preference for the old school sound is probably also due to simple mental inertia.

Other bassists like the sound of flat speakers, and are willing to provide more amp power. Plus, there is the argument that a flat speaker gives the bassist a more realistic indication of what is being sent to the PA system or recording console. Those are valid arguments -- most of my playing is without PA support for the bass. On rare occasions when I am in the studio, I go direct into the board and monitor with headphones.

For better or worse, you have to decide which sound you prefer. While there are many valid approaches, here is mine. I treat each driver as a bag of numbers, and see which ones give me a desired response curve, sensitivity, box size, power handling, weight, and cost. This might easily narrow the field to a small handful of drivers. From this short list of drivers, I am ready to start thinking about actual designs.

I hope my comments are not seen as unfair to the flat response camp. It really boils down to what kind of sound you want. But at least you should be aware that there are these two potentially conflicting approaches, each with its own driver selection rules.

 

[ruerose]

Excellent post. Many good points.


Still need a 1759 replacement.... hehe

 

[raintalk]

Ran across the specs here:
http://members.aol.com/NmacSmith/f3under45.htm

Search down for the Peerless 1759

 

[amperex]

Jensen MOD series

I would use a Jensen MOD series 15-200 for a bass cab. Quite toneful & has an accurate reproduction for bass in the 15".

I find these Jensen MOD series speakers sound as good as any new manufacture speaker. Why Jensen had to use the word 'MOD' with a junky appearing label is beyond me. It looks like the speaker is crap & the lower prices suggests it is so. Read the reviews at Harmony Central under guitar amplifiers to find out what others say about these newer Jensen MOD series.

BTW- I do not care for Jensen 'P' & 'C' series with the exception of the P12N & P15N are ok (but expensive).

 

[Ahmad_tbp]

sorry i don want to interfere , there r lots guys here that have too much more experience and knowledge than someone like me ,but it s so strange for me to use a woofer / mid , 2 ways cab as a bass cab when u can reach the special bass drivers !!!!!!!!! lol ... i never seen a woofer/mid as a bass or atleast a guitar cab , i playin bass for years now and played with many guitarists , and i personaly don think there s a guitarist or bassist that like the sound of a midrange driver ,u really don need a mid driver , the highest freq that needed for a bass guitar s bout 3khz to 6khz , and really not more , but for players who like a modern sound or are into popin/slapin they ll choose a cab w a switchable tweeter ... and if i was u i would never try rubber surrounds i never seen a rubber surround in a cab , ( i m playin through two 10" kenwood rubber surround woofer right now ! ) ,if i was there ( i mean in ur country ! ) and could buy any stuff , i personaly would go for a 2*15" or 4*12 for a warm and bassy sound of a fretless bass ( and for sure a tube driver !!!! )
believe me and never try subwoofer it s terrible , i tried it myself ,...