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Toroids as output transformers....
Toroids as output transformers....
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Old 24th January 2019, 10:48 AM   #21
Kay Pirinha is online now Kay Pirinha  Germany
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Another approach might be to opt for a design that doesn't require large output impedances. The Circlotron or the Philips SEPP OTL designs come to mind - half the output swing and fourth the output impedance, compared to a conventional PP amp with the same pair of tubes and the same output power. And it doesn't need a tapped primary winding.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:25 AM   #22
nauta is offline nauta  Canada
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Hi

Using PTs as OTs is nothing new, but even for guitar where functionality rules over performance, PTs can sound pretty awful even if they are toroids. The reasons why this is the case have been described accurately in this thread. Lots of people podge together little amps for background music using PTs as OTs and that works okay.

Pete Traynor tried noninterweaved OTs as an experiment and never used them in production as they sounded too bad even for his simple music taste of clean tones. For a distorted tone, the intermodulation produced by a PT is horrendous - not musical at all - where the normal THD prodiuced by an over-driven EI OT can be smooth.

As KOC points out, because toroids are nearly perfect in their designed function, they fail in a nearly perfect way, too. Too much bass through even the best high-fidelity toroidal OT will cause a "clink" sound. Totally nonmusical. kevin uses toroidal OTs in his amps and they sound fantastic. He says it matches the use of Power Scaling better as the OT imparts no sound of its own so the loud sound and quiet sound are the same.

The DC imbalance issue is not so much of a problem as people say UNLESS the OT has crazy high inductance. Vander Veen's OTs are like this, so maybe they are sensitive to such imbalance. Even a "bad" or not critically designed toroidal OT will sound much cleaner than the best EI OT, but will not be any more sensitive to DC imbalance than an EI. Again, I have to refer to Kevin O'Connor 'cause he uses toroids for output but you can run the amp with just one tube if you want and it still sounds awesome.

So, I think there's a lot of warning against toroids all around just because people don't know how transformers work? Fender didn't use toroids so they can't sound good, right?
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:53 PM   #23
Kay Pirinha is online now Kay Pirinha  Germany
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Good point(s)!
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:06 PM   #24
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifraf50
I knew that i was gonna get a fair slapping for entertaining the thought that these can actually sound quite good in guitar amp service.....but it did !!!

What i did was a very quick and rude application to prove whether it was worth evaluating even further ......and my ears told me it was
You talk as though you had a bright idea which nobody has ever thought of before, and when you suggested it everybody said it wouldn't work and you were daft to even try it but you forged ahead as a pioneer anyway.
None of this is true. People have thought of it, tried it, and found it works - to some extent. We have pointed out some potential problems; if this is what you call "slapping" then your cheeks will often be red on this forum.
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