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El-cheapo Reverb tank or Digital reverb?
El-cheapo Reverb tank or Digital reverb?
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Old 11th December 2018, 05:08 AM   #51
dotneck335 is offline dotneck335  United States
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Originally Posted by Gnobuddy View Post
The surprise to me is that some digital, solid-state products like the Boss Katana 100 and new Boss Nextone now emulate analogue valve amps so well that they seem to sound as good as some real valve amps.
Take a listen and see what your brain and ears think:
YouTube
I can hear differences, sure, but for me, a line has been crossed: I'm not hearing any awful sounds from the solid-state amp. And I can't always tell which is which, at least not from just this video clip. It might be different if one were actually in a room with the amps and guitar. -Gnobuddy
Pardon my stupidity, but where are the answers as to which are the tube amps?
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Old 11th December 2018, 12:59 PM   #52
JMFahey is offline JMFahey  Argentina
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Would be nice to know, but IF they "are the same" it doesnīt really matter, does it?

I donīt care much about digitalized demos played through a computer through computer speakers in a bedroom ... even if user plugs it into a Hi Fi system ... the difference is still clear when played at *loud* levels, nothing spectacular, just playing live besides a drummer .

The main problem being not the simulation itself but the power amp used ... and of course the speakers.

Best component of tube sound is power amp clipping ... which happens even in supposedly "clean" amps as in , say, a Twin Reverb.

For an SS amp reproducing the wonky waveform from loud Tube amps, it can easily need 8 to 10 dB reserve power so it guaranteed never cliips on its own, squashing peaks and thus altering the sound.

And that IF true Guitar speakers are used.
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Old 11th December 2018, 02:17 PM   #53
avtech23 is offline avtech23  Australia
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El-cheapo Reverb tank or Digital reverb?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dotneck335 View Post
Pardon my stupidity, but where are the answers as to which are the tube amps?
In the video description:

1. Fender Hot Rod Deluxe GREEN - Boss Nextone - RED

2. Vox AC30S1 RED - Boss Nextone GREEN

3. Fender Princeton Reverb RED - Boss Nextone GREEN

4. Marshall DSL40 GREEN - Boss Nextone RED
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Old 11th December 2018, 05:35 PM   #54
Gnobuddy is offline Gnobuddy  Canada
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Originally Posted by JMFahey View Post
...the difference is still clear when played at *loud* levels, nothing spectacular, just playing live besides a drummer.
Here is the exact set of demos you're looking for, by Rob Chapman. Three Katana's (50W 1x12, 100W 1x12, and 100W 2x12) are demonstrated with a drummer.

Here we go, "Katana vs Drummer": YouTube

Speaking only for myself, I don't really hear the Katanas "losing it" the way many previous modelling amps did at higher volume. I'm guessing Roland (Boss' parent company) took advantage of today's cheap, powerful, class D power amps, and packed a lot of power into the Katanas, along with an efficient speaker.

Incidentally, the Boss Katana 50 is $229 USD at Sweetwater, almost a quarter of the price of the awful-sounding $1000 Boss GT-1000. I can't figure that one out - who wants to spend four times the money to sound ten times worse?


-Gnobuddy
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Old 11th December 2018, 07:42 PM   #55
JMFahey is offline JMFahey  Argentina
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No, I mean when *I* listen to SS vs Tube amps live, at live drummer-within-10-feet levels.

I couldnīt care less as to what level was used at recording, if I later compare them through a pair of cheesy 2" plastic speakers powered from USB ... not even if a much louder home stereo and home speakers are involved, itīs still not loud enough by 10 to 20 dB.

My practical every weekend for a decade or more experience is that most Digital simulators are killer sounding when recording, but fail to deliver the goods when played live, by a drummer (the golden SPL reference level).

Quote:
I'm guessing Roland (Boss' parent company) took advantage of today's cheap, powerful, class D power amps, and packed a lot of power into the Katanas, along with an efficient speaker.
Thatīs my point.
Incidentally, the Boss Katana 50 is $229 USD at Sweetwater, almost a quarter of the price of the awful-sounding $1000 Boss GT-1000. I can't figure that one out - who wants to spend four times the money to sound ten times worse?
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Old 11th December 2018, 08:35 PM   #56
JMFahey is offline JMFahey  Argentina
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Quote:
Incidentally, the Boss Katana 50 is $229 USD at Sweetwater, almost a quarter of the price of the awful-sounding $1000 Boss GT-1000. I can't figure that one out - who wants to spend four times the money to sound ten times worse?
I make and sell guitar amps and every week or two I go listen some customers, both to check actual sound live, compare it to "new kids on the block" (as, say, the Katana) and make/refresh contacts.
So I always see some guy who arrives in a taxi cab with only guitar and huge pedalboard or simulator, NO amp at all, not even a cheesy SS 15W 8" practice une, to be used as setup monitor.

He palms the simulator/pedals and proudly says "I donīt need no f*ckinīamp! ... my sound lives here!"
And then he plugs it into the effects return of, say, a Valvestate 80 or similar if he knows a little or straight into input if nothing at all. (hey, itīs not a Tube Screamer or a DS1)

Sound goes from boring to horrible.

You canīt beat Physics, and if he selects , say, the preset "Metallica live at Castle Donnington 1992" which requires at least 400W RMS worth of tube amps and 16 12" V30 or G12T Celestions to push air, the SS 80W RMS and single 12" in a small open back cabinet simply can NOT cope. Period.

Now if he plugs Guitar straight into same Valvestate 80, maybe with some distortion pedal to boost gain and sustain and he plays it loud, sound will be quite acceptable and usable.

Why? ... because, same as Katana and a host other SS combos, preamp, power amp and speakers were matched to each other from the beginning, itīs a one trick pony which can do *one* thing reasonably well: its own sound, with no hopes of "emulating" anything else.

But a 256 sound 256 preset monster? .... fine ... if you drive some 400W RMS power and a couple 4x12" , then it can reasonably emulate a full blast Plexi and anything *smaller* ... it does not work the other way.

Now when recording ... be my guest, itīs a virtual world with no relation whatsoever to high pressure air slapping your eardrums back and forth.

But ... but ... the Katana also simulates amps and cabinets"

Cool, and it does it very well ... at bedroom levels.
But see my comment above about moving lots of air at high SPL.
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Last edited by JMFahey; 11th December 2018 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 13th December 2018, 05:05 AM   #57
dotneck335 is offline dotneck335  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnobuddy View Post
..... The surprise to me is that some digital, solid-state products like the Boss Katana 100 and new Boss Nextone now emulate analogue valve amps so well that they seem to sound as good as some real valve amps.Take a listen and see what your brain and ears think:
YouTube
I can hear differences, sure, but for me, a line has been crossed: I'm not hearing any awful sounds from the solid-state amp. And I can't always tell which is which, at least not from just this video clip. -Gnobuddy
I found myself marking down which sound I preferred rather than which amp I thought was the tube amp. I have to agree, though, that, they were more similar than different. I found that I preferred the sound of the Fender amps, but the Boss Nextone over the Vox, and the Marshall and Nextone sounded the same to me. Indeed, the solid-state amps have come a LONG way!!!!!
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:09 PM   #58
Gnobuddy is offline Gnobuddy  Canada
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Originally Posted by dotneck335 View Post
Indeed, the solid-state amps have come a LONG way!!!!!
Pretty surprising, isn't it? The industry that promised caviare but delivered dog-food for thirty-odd years has finally actually made some pretty decent fake caviare. Wow.

A part of me is happy to see this milestone finally being reached - it's been about a long journey for both manufacturers and customers. I remember when Line 6 was the shiny newcomer to the digital guitar amp emulation field - that was in 1996, twenty two years ago now! Of course there were non-digital attempts to make passable solid-state guitar amps long before that.

Another part of me is not so happy, because the sort of sophisticated DSP and microelectronics in the Boss Katana and Nextone is out of reach of 99% of DIY electronics hobbyists. Hardware difficulties aside, the software / firmware running on those chips is secret, proprietary, copyrighted, and unlikely to ever legally be in the hands of hobbyists.

But if the $230 Katana 50 inspires a few of the next generation of young musicians enough to get them playing guitar, then that will be a wonderful thing for all concerned. Let's hope that's how it turns out.


-Gnobuddy
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:02 PM   #59
AstroZon is offline AstroZon  United States
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Back in the 70s, I used to see a lot of stand-alone spring reverbs - usually made by Fender. Then amp makers built them into combo amps. Now however, real spring reverb is hard to find in an amp - especially the long spring type (non-folded.)

So if you want one, go ahead and and build it. They sound great.
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