Capacitors have no sound, specially in a Guitar amplifier.
What gives an amplifier a characteristic sound is in the whole project itself: how it´s equalized, its gain, headroom , specially lack of it, meaning when and how it clips, different stage distortion which adds up one way or another, etc.
Thinking that sound relies on a single part (besides, with ZERO proof about that) instead of the long and painful Designer´s work, usually polished along Years, is a gross disrespect towards him, as well of showing no clue about how an amplifier works.
Just follow the 71 year long evolution of Fender amplifiers, arguably the most influential Musical Instrument amplifier of all times, from 1947 plain "datasheet application" initial builds to current designs, plus all different brand ones clearly traceable to Fender and which evolved on their own, and you´ll see how actual *design* and not a cheesy single part is the backbone.
Besides, they have seldom used Tantalum caps, if at all
Same with Vox, Marshall, Ampeg, etc.
A few SS Vox amps, a couple Acoustic, some random early Peavey might have used Tantalum, basically because they were "new and revolutionary" ... in late 60´s, early 70´s ... and none of those is considered a Paradigm of sound
What gives an amplifier a characteristic sound is in the whole project itself: how it´s equalized, its gain, headroom , specially lack of it, meaning when and how it clips, different stage distortion which adds up one way or another, etc.
Thinking that sound relies on a single part (besides, with ZERO proof about that) instead of the long and painful Designer´s work, usually polished along Years, is a gross disrespect towards him, as well of showing no clue about how an amplifier works.
Just follow the 71 year long evolution of Fender amplifiers, arguably the most influential Musical Instrument amplifier of all times, from 1947 plain "datasheet application" initial builds to current designs, plus all different brand ones clearly traceable to Fender and which evolved on their own, and you´ll see how actual *design* and not a cheesy single part is the backbone.
Besides, they have seldom used Tantalum caps, if at all
Same with Vox, Marshall, Ampeg, etc.
A few SS Vox amps, a couple Acoustic, some random early Peavey might have used Tantalum, basically because they were "new and revolutionary" ... in late 60´s, early 70´s ... and none of those is considered a Paradigm of sound
You can also find forums in which people avoid tantalum caps because they sound horrible.
Tantalum caps were popular in the 1970s and 80s because they were newish, small and believed to be reliable. They are now out of fashion because ordinary electrolytics are now smaller, and tantalums were found to be long-term a bit unreliable. They were never originally used for their sound quality, and if they affect the sound then this would be a sign of poor quality.
The truth is that a correct value coupling capacitor has little or no sound at all. People latch onto cap types or brands as a substitute for actually understanding electronics, then divert attention from this lack of understanding by insisting on (sighted) listening to 'prove' their confused assertions.
Tantalum caps were popular in the 1970s and 80s because they were newish, small and believed to be reliable. They are now out of fashion because ordinary electrolytics are now smaller, and tantalums were found to be long-term a bit unreliable. They were never originally used for their sound quality, and if they affect the sound then this would be a sign of poor quality.
The truth is that a correct value coupling capacitor has little or no sound at all. People latch onto cap types or brands as a substitute for actually understanding electronics, then divert attention from this lack of understanding by insisting on (sighted) listening to 'prove' their confused assertions.
Certainly interesting. Always hated those, even inside old Naim gear, but this has been based on audiophile expectations for neutrality and low subjective distortion. They certainly have character, which in the context of musicians amps can be exploited. Thanks for bringing this up.
I experimented with tantalum capacitors (22uF/16V) in a CD player, as bypass capacitors of the output operational amplifiers supply voltages. I can't comment on their "sound", but if I knocked them with a pencil, I could hear a knocking sound from the loudspeakers! They are microphonic like hell. Perhaps they also pick up music generated air vibration, and this is fed back to the music itself. Although I have no proof of this theory, it does make sense.
Well, I think there are a few gentlemen who have a VERY good idea about how an amplifier works, who disagree. Mr. Bateman has AMPLE proof of capacitor-induced sound alteration:
Cyril Bateman's Capacitor Sound articles | Linear Audio NL
and the paper by Walter Jung (who probably has FORGOTTEN more about electronics than you or I ever knew) extolling the virtues of film caps over other types (sorry, I can't find the link, but he says there that merely replacing the electrolytics with film types in an old Dynaco preamp made an outstanding sound improvement).
Microphonics in tantalum capacitors:
Stress-induced outbursts: Microphonics in ceramic capacitors (Part 2) - Precision Hub - Archives - TI E2E Community
Reliability of tantalum caps:
I'm guessing the use of (wet and dry) tantalum caps in satellites proves the unreliability of tantalum caps, as well as the normal use of them in motherboards, harddisks and ssd's etc, when costs allow. Furthermore they are used in the majority of military equipment.
Regarding the perceived sound difference between capacitors, the proof is in the pudding. Let's just say that the measured differences can be extremely small yet, especially for e.g. a seasoned guitair player, the perceived change in sound character can be big enough to go for a certain type. This doesn't mean at all that the other parts don't make a difference in sound.
Just another non-audio company stating huge difference in performance by type:
Do Passive Components Degrade Audio Quality in Your Portable Device? - Application Note - Maxim
I'm amazed by how one can be so sure caps don't make a difference soundwise or that tantalums are unreliable. I would state the opposite and it's extremely easy to prove since that's just the nature of the parts in the schematic, that's how they're used. So does layout, type of wire and many more things. One size doesn't fit all though and I'd never use tantalum in the signal path but would exclusively in digital supplies.
Stress-induced outbursts: Microphonics in ceramic capacitors (Part 2) - Precision Hub - Archives - TI E2E Community
Reliability of tantalum caps:
I'm guessing the use of (wet and dry) tantalum caps in satellites proves the unreliability of tantalum caps, as well as the normal use of them in motherboards, harddisks and ssd's etc, when costs allow. Furthermore they are used in the majority of military equipment.
Regarding the perceived sound difference between capacitors, the proof is in the pudding. Let's just say that the measured differences can be extremely small yet, especially for e.g. a seasoned guitair player, the perceived change in sound character can be big enough to go for a certain type. This doesn't mean at all that the other parts don't make a difference in sound.
Just another non-audio company stating huge difference in performance by type:
Do Passive Components Degrade Audio Quality in Your Portable Device? - Application Note - Maxim
I'm amazed by how one can be so sure caps don't make a difference soundwise or that tantalums are unreliable. I would state the opposite and it's extremely easy to prove since that's just the nature of the parts in the schematic, that's how they're used. So does layout, type of wire and many more things. One size doesn't fit all though and I'd never use tantalum in the signal path but would exclusively in digital supplies.
Do Mr Bateman and Jung design and build ***GUITAR*** amplifiers? (what we are talking about)
PLEASE show us ONE.
As a side note, you are proving nothing, you are just resorting to one of classic Logic Fallacies: Argument from authority - Wikipedia
with the added funny fact that maybe 0.02 % distortion added by a capacitor can be heard in a 0.01% distortion amplifier which is the kind of amplifiers they deal with ... but any respected Guitar amplifier has *at least* 5% distortion (and usually more, each 12AX7 stage adds 1 to 1.5% on its own) .... do you think you can compare both types side by side?
In any case those gentlemen are completely unrelated to this thread, which is commenting on:
And in any case, they do NOT prefer Tantalum or any kind of "chemical" capacitor to begin with, not sure why you think they back your point.
PLEASE show us ONE.
As a side note, you are proving nothing, you are just resorting to one of classic Logic Fallacies: Argument from authority - Wikipedia
with the added funny fact that maybe 0.02 % distortion added by a capacitor can be heard in a 0.01% distortion amplifier which is the kind of amplifiers they deal with ... but any respected Guitar amplifier has *at least* 5% distortion (and usually more, each 12AX7 stage adds 1 to 1.5% on its own) .... do you think you can compare both types side by side?
In any case those gentlemen are completely unrelated to this thread, which is commenting on:
to which I answered "NO".
And in any case, they do NOT prefer Tantalum or any kind of "chemical" capacitor to begin with, not sure why you think they back your point.
Bateman's measurements were mainly using the sort of signal levels a capacitor might see in a passive speaker crossover network. When used as a suitable value coupling capacitor there is much less problem, which is why most claims about capacitors are really fashion statements.dotneck335 said:
Not ALL "respected" guitar amps have 5% distortion---the ones referred to were pedal steel guitar amplifiers with ~0.1% THD, and are pretty much the standard for their type (Peavey Nashville 400) and are greatly valued by the PSG community.
No, those gentlemen (Bateman & Jung) do NOT prefer tantalums---they hate 'em! But you said that "Capacitors have no sound". They & I disagree with that statement, as do many musicians.
Why ask a question when you seem to have already decided what the answer is?
Musicians believe many things about audio electronics; some of them are true. Many are not. I knew an amateur guitarist who insisted that after playing his amp was left on 'standby' for a few minutes so it could 'cool down gradually'. He firmly believed that this would lengthen the life of the components, especially valves. I once tried to explain to him that at best it did nothing useful, and at worst it could slightly shorten the life of the valves. Like most musicians, he 'knew best'.
Musicians believe many things about audio electronics; some of them are true. Many are not. I knew an amateur guitarist who insisted that after playing his amp was left on 'standby' for a few minutes so it could 'cool down gradually'. He firmly believed that this would lengthen the life of the components, especially valves. I once tried to explain to him that at best it did nothing useful, and at worst it could slightly shorten the life of the valves. Like most musicians, he 'knew best'.
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Just a short note on capacitors particularly Ceramics. In audio circuits it is important to use C0G (NP0) types which have good stability on temperature, and apparently low distortion. I won't comment on film vs electrolytic vs ceramic, but ceramics that aren't C0G can vary greatly in value with changing temperatures.
True. I tend to use what I have in my standard bin of parts which is film caps up to 1uF, or so. It's more for consistency of sizing and tolerance and they are not anything fancy but they work reliably.
They appeared briefly in some TV's, and were appallingly unreliable - as you say, usually going S/C. They were promptly dropped, and have only made small appearances in TV's since, where they continued to be troublesome.
This isn't to say that electrolytics aren't 'troublesome' as well, but tantalums failed in places electrolytics never did.
Yes, I think there is a plethora of tantalum capacitor's failures, especially the 'beaded' types,. But not all tants are alike. These (https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/212/KEM_T2031_T110_AXIAL_T212-1104419.pdf)
have proven by one amplifier expert to be reliable and sound excellent. They are hermetically sealed; but are also a bit pricey. These were used as COUPLING capacitors, not sitting on the power supply rails.
have proven by one amplifier expert to be reliable and sound excellent. They are hermetically sealed; but are also a bit pricey. These were used as COUPLING capacitors, not sitting on the power supply rails.