I want to build a guitar amp, but have 0 experience w/ music amps.
Building it won't be an issue for me.. But I don't know where to begin.
I'm sure there are a bunch of amps out there which are exactly what I want..
So, the output section isn't really important. I think I'll go 6v6 PP, because I have all the tubes and transformers. As long as the output stage of an instrument amp is about the same as hifi, I can design this on my own.
But the preamp section.. I want an amp w/ multiple volume's, so I can turn up the distortion in the pre section, but turn down the volume to the power section.
I'd like multiple tone controls (high mid low)
I'd like some effects. Maybe reverb, as I have a couple tanks sitting here unused. My existing amp (magnatone 6v6 se) has 'vibrato' which is nice. (I think it's actually tremolo, though).
I found the Mesa Boogie 50 caliber schematics, and that looks really good (minus the EQ section, for me). But there isn't a lot of info out there from people who have built it. Its lead/rhythm foot switch is cool, but I don't really need that. I'm not gigging, and can tweak knobs to change the sound.
Are there more common amps w/ the two volume controls and ability to dial in distortion?
Building it won't be an issue for me.. But I don't know where to begin.
I'm sure there are a bunch of amps out there which are exactly what I want..
So, the output section isn't really important. I think I'll go 6v6 PP, because I have all the tubes and transformers. As long as the output stage of an instrument amp is about the same as hifi, I can design this on my own.
But the preamp section.. I want an amp w/ multiple volume's, so I can turn up the distortion in the pre section, but turn down the volume to the power section.
I'd like multiple tone controls (high mid low)
I'd like some effects. Maybe reverb, as I have a couple tanks sitting here unused. My existing amp (magnatone 6v6 se) has 'vibrato' which is nice. (I think it's actually tremolo, though).
I found the Mesa Boogie 50 caliber schematics, and that looks really good (minus the EQ section, for me). But there isn't a lot of info out there from people who have built it. Its lead/rhythm foot switch is cool, but I don't really need that. I'm not gigging, and can tweak knobs to change the sound.
Are there more common amps w/ the two volume controls and ability to dial in distortion?
Maybe something here will give you ideas.
Design And Build Your Own Tube Guitar Amp - WorkbenchFun.com
DIY Fever – Building my own guitars, amps and pedals
The thing is, I have my ideas.. I know how to build.. I just don't know anything about guitar amps, and don't know which ones to look at. I don't know any guitar players in person..
to any guitar players or gear heads... Are there specific brand/model amps I should be looking at, that have the pre-amp gain (distortion level) and then another volume level?
That's really the only definite requirement.. I want to be able to increase distortion, and still be able to turn down the volume level. I'd imagine that's pretty common, but so far I'm not having luck finding any schematics.. other than that mesa/boogie one.
Maybe this is a better question for a guitar player forum.. 'Cause I'm sort of asking "what brand amp should I buy" (only in my case it'll be build).
That or a big cup of coffee and some time to sit here and look through hundreds of guitar amp schematics.
to any guitar players or gear heads... Are there specific brand/model amps I should be looking at, that have the pre-amp gain (distortion level) and then another volume level?
That's really the only definite requirement.. I want to be able to increase distortion, and still be able to turn down the volume level. I'd imagine that's pretty common, but so far I'm not having luck finding any schematics.. other than that mesa/boogie one.
Maybe this is a better question for a guitar player forum.. 'Cause I'm sort of asking "what brand amp should I buy" (only in my case it'll be build).
That or a big cup of coffee and some time to sit here and look through hundreds of guitar amp schematics.
Do you play guitar? I assume so, but it's not clear from the first post.
Anyway, one of the things that makes a tube amp sound like a tube amp is output stage distortion, as well as the various preamp overloads. So fitting the amp to the tone you want is important, but well within possibility once you have a target to aim for.
I guess the questions you need to answer are do you normally play clean, dirty, chimey, spongey, or something else?
If there was one tone more important than others, what would it be ? SRV? Beatles? Wah? Surf? Blues and jazz? Heavy metal rhythm?
Lastly, and be honest here, as it's super important, how loud do you normally play? You talk about turning it down but still having distortion, so you can completely forget having PP 6L6... Way too much power
Anyway, one of the things that makes a tube amp sound like a tube amp is output stage distortion, as well as the various preamp overloads. So fitting the amp to the tone you want is important, but well within possibility once you have a target to aim for.
I guess the questions you need to answer are do you normally play clean, dirty, chimey, spongey, or something else?
If there was one tone more important than others, what would it be ? SRV? Beatles? Wah? Surf? Blues and jazz? Heavy metal rhythm?
Lastly, and be honest here, as it's super important, how loud do you normally play? You talk about turning it down but still having distortion, so you can completely forget having PP 6L6... Way too much power
Thanks for the reply..
To answer the last thing you said first, I said 6v6, not 6l6. That'll make some difference. But still, is more output than I need for mostly home use.
And that's just it.. I want to be able to distort the pre section, and have the ability to turn down the power.. I understand there is more distortion to be had in the output stage. But the mesa/boogie has the ability to turn up distortion in the pre section, and turn down the volume.. And someone I knew 20 years ago in school had a similar ability on his amp.. but I don't remember what kind of amp.
My existing amp is a magnatone 6v6 se, and it's a very clean amp. Even all the way up w/ high output active pickups, it doesn't distort much. So, I want one I can make dirty and full of distortion when I want.
And so here's the problem. I don't play guitar yet. I just got one (well, 6 months ago, and I can sort of play it now
). I've played piano/keyboards for 35 years, but not guitar. SO, no idea on tone.. Versatility is what I'm looking for..
I guess I could say, I've been playing a lot of jazz/bosa nova, and my clean magnatone has been great for that. I like a lot of british music, so have also been playing beatles, cure, joy division, smiths, etc.
But, because this is just for fun in my home/home studio, I don't need to nail some specific tone.
I know that makes this part of the phase really difficult on one had.. But on the other, I'll probably be happy w/ almost anything.
To answer the last thing you said first, I said 6v6, not 6l6. That'll make some difference. But still, is more output than I need for mostly home use.
And that's just it.. I want to be able to distort the pre section, and have the ability to turn down the power.. I understand there is more distortion to be had in the output stage. But the mesa/boogie has the ability to turn up distortion in the pre section, and turn down the volume.. And someone I knew 20 years ago in school had a similar ability on his amp.. but I don't remember what kind of amp.
My existing amp is a magnatone 6v6 se, and it's a very clean amp. Even all the way up w/ high output active pickups, it doesn't distort much. So, I want one I can make dirty and full of distortion when I want.
And so here's the problem. I don't play guitar yet. I just got one (well, 6 months ago, and I can sort of play it now
). I've played piano/keyboards for 35 years, but not guitar. SO, no idea on tone.. Versatility is what I'm looking for.. I guess I could say, I've been playing a lot of jazz/bosa nova, and my clean magnatone has been great for that. I like a lot of british music, so have also been playing beatles, cure, joy division, smiths, etc.
But, because this is just for fun in my home/home studio, I don't need to nail some specific tone.
I know that makes this part of the phase really difficult on one had.. But on the other, I'll probably be happy w/ almost anything.
I am a guitar player and have been for a long time, longer than I have been building/designing guitar amps. I actually got into building/designing guitar amps because I was sick of the snake oil "buy this boutique amp it has these types of caps which are $$$" but in reality it's just a fender clone lol. Anyway I have played through countless amps and been inside to see what makes them tick so maybe I can help you narrow down your search.
First, I think you have the knowledge and experience to where you wouldn't have to copy a schematic. If you are looking for ideas here is what I have learned over the years.
Power requirements, you have already narrowed this down by wanting to use a pair of 6V6's which is IMHO a great choice (most of my amps use them currently). They are easy to drive and aren't super expensive, they also seem to be built well, even the current production. If you are building a combo amp then the choice of speaker will impact the sound so much I can't stress this point enough. Picking an efficient driver you will get more clean headroom from the 6V6's. Speaker rolling is easy so we can talk more about choosing them later once the design is finished. You will get the most power when running the 6V6's at higher voltage and fixed bias probably around 20 watts, with a lower B+ and cathode bias you can get down to 10-12 watts from a pair.
You have one requirement which is a preamp "gain" control and a "master" volume control. Most Fender amps "volume" control is placed between gain stages and is what a Marshall would call "gain" control. If you are a stereo kind of guy then this is easy to imagine because most power amps don't have a volume control, that's what the preamp is for For your "Master" volume control you just have to decide whether you want Pre phase inverter or post phase inverter "master" volume control. It is most important to figure out how much preamp gain you would like, some high gain amps have several cascading gain stages, this gives a very aggressive distortion sound but can be tricky to get to sound good, I have found that with several gain stages it is best to alternate bias, hot, cold, hot, cold etc.....
Power supply is probably the least understood part of the design. The power supply and class of operation will have a big impact on how the amp reacts to transients and how it feels as a guitar player, I have several amps because of this. If you are into a bluesy compressed type of break up then a less stiff or spongy power supply is what you want. If you want crisp low end on attacks then you will need a stiff supply, class A operation shouldn't make too much of a difference but when you get into full on clipping it still can. I am simplifying a little here because the circuit as a whole will effect how fast the amp feels but I think you get the point.
Feedback is another important feature but can be made switchable. A good example is when Fender came out with their custom Vibrolux it didn't have global feedback like the original and is why it didn't sound or feel anything like the original.
Each brand has different models so going by brand is tough to do if you are looking for ideas. Maybe pick some of your favorite guitarists that you dig their sound and see what they are using and go from their.
First, I think you have the knowledge and experience to where you wouldn't have to copy a schematic. If you are looking for ideas here is what I have learned over the years.
Power requirements, you have already narrowed this down by wanting to use a pair of 6V6's which is IMHO a great choice (most of my amps use them currently). They are easy to drive and aren't super expensive, they also seem to be built well, even the current production. If you are building a combo amp then the choice of speaker will impact the sound so much I can't stress this point enough. Picking an efficient driver you will get more clean headroom from the 6V6's. Speaker rolling is easy so we can talk more about choosing them later once the design is finished. You will get the most power when running the 6V6's at higher voltage and fixed bias probably around 20 watts, with a lower B+ and cathode bias you can get down to 10-12 watts from a pair.
You have one requirement which is a preamp "gain" control and a "master" volume control. Most Fender amps "volume" control is placed between gain stages and is what a Marshall would call "gain" control. If you are a stereo kind of guy then this is easy to imagine because most power amps don't have a volume control, that's what the preamp is for
For your "Master" volume control you just have to decide whether you want Pre phase inverter or post phase inverter "master" volume control. It is most important to figure out how much preamp gain you would like, some high gain amps have several cascading gain stages, this gives a very aggressive distortion sound but can be tricky to get to sound good, I have found that with several gain stages it is best to alternate bias, hot, cold, hot, cold etc.....Power supply is probably the least understood part of the design. The power supply and class of operation will have a big impact on how the amp reacts to transients and how it feels as a guitar player, I have several amps because of this. If you are into a bluesy compressed type of break up then a less stiff or spongy power supply is what you want. If you want crisp low end on attacks then you will need a stiff supply, class A operation shouldn't make too much of a difference but when you get into full on clipping it still can. I am simplifying a little here because the circuit as a whole will effect how fast the amp feels but I think you get the point.
Feedback is another important feature but can be made switchable. A good example is when Fender came out with their custom Vibrolux it didn't have global feedback like the original and is why it didn't sound or feel anything like the original.
Each brand has different models so going by brand is tough to do if you are looking for ideas. Maybe pick some of your favorite guitarists that you dig their sound and see what they are using and go from their.
Thanks, FMB.. That's all very helpful, and has already helped explain some of the differences I've been seeing in different amps.
My amp hobby experience until now has always been to minimize distortion, so things are different here in the instrument amp world! I find it less intimidating, though, not chasing down the perfect distortion free clean signal..
Maybe I'll take your advice and read up on distortion in gain stages, etc, and come up w/ something on my own.. (I'll still be doing a lot of copying).
Two questions about the pre/post phase splitter volume control.. Why? How?
I guess the phase splitter can add distortion as well?
And for how, I guess you'd use a dual gang pot?
My amp hobby experience until now has always been to minimize distortion, so things are different here in the instrument amp world! I find it less intimidating, though, not chasing down the perfect distortion free clean signal..
Maybe I'll take your advice and read up on distortion in gain stages, etc, and come up w/ something on my own.. (I'll still be doing a lot of copying).
Two questions about the pre/post phase splitter volume control.. Why? How?
I guess the phase splitter can add distortion as well?
And for how, I guess you'd use a dual gang pot?
Yes and Yes
The post PI master volume lets the PI get the large signal when the "gain" control is cranked while keeping the "master' volume low, this can add a more complex distortion sound than with pre PI master volume. And yes post PI would use a dual gang pot.
Walk before you run, forget the Mesa Boogie.
In general best is to start with a Champ type one .
FWIW I built my first Gibson GA5 (their version of Champ) , (straight out of Jack Darr's Electric Guitar Amplifiers book, which I strongly suggest you buy):
http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Guitar-Amplifier-Handbook-Jack/dp/1882580486
in 1969 .... I have built and sold way over 10000 (yes, over ten thousand, not a typo) by now ... guess it works
I suggest you get into:
AX84.com - The Cooperative Tube Guitar Amp Project , start with their basic amp which is roughly a Champ and then improve it, step by step, until you have a fire breathing high gain monster, no kidding.
All built on the same platform.
You waste nothing, just add tubes and related parts and you learn/practice along the way.
After you finished and enjoyed the last one (you start using them from the first one) then you get into higher power (but not better sounding) amps.
In general best is to start with a Champ type one .
FWIW I built my first Gibson GA5 (their version of Champ) , (straight out of Jack Darr's Electric Guitar Amplifiers book, which I strongly suggest you buy):
http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Guitar-Amplifier-Handbook-Jack/dp/1882580486
in 1969 .... I have built and sold way over 10000 (yes, over ten thousand, not a typo) by now ... guess it works
I suggest you get into:
AX84.com - The Cooperative Tube Guitar Amp Project , start with their basic amp which is roughly a Champ and then improve it, step by step, until you have a fire breathing high gain monster, no kidding.
All built on the same platform.
You waste nothing, just add tubes and related parts and you learn/practice along the way.
After you finished and enjoyed the last one (you start using them from the first one) then you get into higher power (but not better sounding) amps.
I've built plenty of tube amps.. from little 1 watt se, to 100 watt parallel push pull monster monoblocks (all hifi, tho).
So, no need to walk.. But I agree, the mesa is overly complex for what I need. I'm thinking about the mesa 50cal as inspiration, but skip all the LDR's that switch between the lead and rhythm modes. Skip the EQ.
I just want to see more schematics where they have separate gain and master controls, before I get started. I guess I could have kept the thread a lot shorter if I worded my question better.. Should have said "can anyone show me some schematics of amps w/ separate gain and volume controls".
So, no need to walk.. But I agree, the mesa is overly complex for what I need. I'm thinking about the mesa 50cal as inspiration, but skip all the LDR's that switch between the lead and rhythm modes. Skip the EQ.
I just want to see more schematics where they have separate gain and master controls, before I get started. I guess I could have kept the thread a lot shorter if I worded my question better.. Should have said "can anyone show me some schematics of amps w/ separate gain and volume controls".
Schematics
AmpWares
and Fender has support for all their amps. You will have to click on the "Downloads" tab from my link: Amplifier Schematics | Fender Support | Fender
AmpWares
and Fender has support for all their amps. You will have to click on the "Downloads" tab from my link: Amplifier Schematics | Fender Support | Fender
There's tons of tube amp schematic pages, just google around and you'll find them.
For high gain monsters there's always SLOclone .
Also search Music Electronics Forum, it's specialized on Music Instrument and Pro Audio stuff.
It's the sucessor of lamented Ampage and in a way , hosts what remains of it, many old posts are there but read only.
Due to system glitches, lots of old schematics come out empty, but if interested in a specific one, kind members sometimes can repost them.
You might like one of the simpler single channel Soldano amps, no reverb, no switching or effects.
Mesa in general is way overcomplicated stuff, and to my ears, dull sounding, they rely mostly on preamp distortion and trying to kill the buzz, they also kill the sparkle
Or Peavey simple ones, like the Butcher, Killer in-your-face sound.
For high gain monsters there's always SLOclone .
Also search Music Electronics Forum, it's specialized on Music Instrument and Pro Audio stuff.
It's the sucessor of lamented Ampage and in a way , hosts what remains of it, many old posts are there but read only.
Due to system glitches, lots of old schematics come out empty, but if interested in a specific one, kind members sometimes can repost them.
You might like one of the simpler single channel Soldano amps, no reverb, no switching or effects.
Mesa in general is way overcomplicated stuff, and to my ears, dull sounding, they rely mostly on preamp distortion and trying to kill the buzz, they also kill the sparkle
Or Peavey simple ones, like the Butcher, Killer in-your-face sound.
No, not 10000 Champs, that was just the first one.
My meat and potatoes amps are 100 to 500W RMS for stage use, can't compete with the Chinese for the low end market, so had to aim at Pro Musicians who have special needs I can fulfill.
As a free sample here the Bass Player is using 3 of my Fahey MosFet B300 Bass amps, the white front panel ones with a bright red Led clearly visible to the right of his head, driving his Ampeg 8x10" cabinets.
Almafuerte - Almafuerte (en vivo) - YouTube
I can proudly say that he sold his Ampeg SVT Classic tube heads to buy mine
My meat and potatoes amps are 100 to 500W RMS for stage use, can't compete with the Chinese for the low end market, so had to aim at Pro Musicians who have special needs I can fulfill.
As a free sample here the Bass Player is using 3 of my Fahey MosFet B300 Bass amps, the white front panel ones with a bright red Led clearly visible to the right of his head, driving his Ampeg 8x10" cabinets.
Almafuerte - Almafuerte (en vivo) - YouTube
I can proudly say that he sold his Ampeg SVT Classic tube heads to buy mine
my favourite amp is the amp i own
If i were to do something similar, I would very much like to clone the amp.I use already.
Dean Markley T120R.
I'm sure the amp experts/designers will judge that there isn't much unique in the preamp section (I am not an expert) but I love the tone i get from this amp and G10R speakers.
The schematic is here if of any help to you:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...markley-t120-r-fixer-upper-project-t-120r.pdf
If i were to do something similar, I would very much like to clone the amp.I use already.
Dean Markley T120R.
I'm sure the amp experts/designers will judge that there isn't much unique in the preamp section (I am not an expert
) but I love the tone i get from this amp and G10R speakers.The schematic is here if of any help to you:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...markley-t120-r-fixer-upper-project-t-120r.pdf
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