Celestion "Vintage 30" - Thiele Small Parameters wanted

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There's reason Celestion doesn't provide T-S specs - a V-30 is not a "small signal" speaker. :)

I don't have a V-30 to hand, but the WGS Retro 30 is similar. The cone weight is too much for the magnet, so they don't work very well in a TL. The Qts is too high for porting; they'll work best in a large, closed enclosure. While they're used in many smaller cabs and even open-backed combos, the V-30 is at home in a 4x12.
 
There's reason Celestion doesn't provide T-S specs - a V-30 is not a "small signal" speaker. :)

I don't have a V-30 to hand, but the WGS Retro 30 is similar. The cone weight is too much for the magnet, so they don't work very well in a TL. The Qts is too high for porting; they'll work best in a large, closed enclosure. While they're used in many smaller cabs and even open-backed combos, the V-30 is at home in a 4x12.

Thank you.
according the URL
https://wgs4.com/content/Retro30
the WGS Retro 30 has follow parameters:

Resonant Frequency (Fs) 98 Hz
DC Resistance (Re) 6.90 Ohm
Coil Inductance (Le) 0.38 mH
Mechanical Q (Qms) 15.53
Electromagnetic Q (Qes) 0.61
Total Q (Qts) 0.59
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas) 1.35 cu ft (x 0,02832 m3 x 1000 = ~ 40 liters)
Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms) 0.10 mm/N
BL Product (BL) 13.88 T-M
Diaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (Mms) 27.69 grams
Surface Area of Cone (Sd) 53.24 cm squared
Sound Pressure Level (spl) 100 db

Very high Oms indicates also good results for a high pass filtered satellite vented boom box for top class home audio between 80 and 5000 Hz together with a tweeter from one of the models about
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/155885-99db-dome-tweeter-without-titan-without-horn.html
 
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Really, if you want to play music rather than make music, you should be looking at 'pro audio' (PA) speakers. Guitar speakers are specifically designed to make 6 steel strings strung on a plank of wood sound musical at extremely high volumes. To say they are "colored" is an understatement.

Retro 30, measured close.
 

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The reason that I am chiming in here, that I would like to make a LCR filter that could tame the 2,5 KHz peak just a little bit.
tee hee hee:D

That path leads to madness: the peak is a physical resonance off the cone. Damping the electrical part with either a) not work, b) suck the life out of the sound or c) all of the above.

A bit like why pony tails swing sidewards when one runs in a straight line, simply trying to not put energy into the resonance band won't work: this ain't a linear system we're talking about.

Probably the best route (short of swapping the speaker) is to try attaching bits of felt or similar to the cone to damp out the resonance (expect the efficiency to fal). It'd help if you can lay your hands on some very expensive laser intereferometry test gear or a copy of whatever MLSSA is called these days.

Here's an example of the sort of problem you're looking at (page 5 of the link above). Later on there's one where the resonance frequency varies with time - try filtering that out
FOCALWTR.gif
 
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I don´t know if that was meant as an assault, but I am mad already, and I am always looking for Quick fixes.

It is easy to try out, but it will take at least 4 weeks before I can do in, in that I don´t have a V30 myself anymore, because I have swapped the ones I had.

For me this is just to experience how and if it works.
 
No assault at all, rather a honest answer.

IF you wish, you can build a crossover type (same design equations) resonant notch, tuned to 2500Hz and designed for an 8 ohm speaker, then wire it in series with speaker.

It will "work", not sure it does what you expect.

As mentioned above, it´s a *mechanical* cone resonance, added to the fact that a 12" cone gets very directional at 2500Hz.

Meaning that huge peak is present on axis but much attenuated , say, 30 degrees either side, so your speaker will now sound dull unless straight in front of you.

A 12" Hi Fi speaker will typically be crossed over to a midrange to avoid that and/or a 2 way system in general will use a woofer smaller than 12", to push up the problem (beaming) frequency and out of the way.

There´s a reason there are different speaker "families", say Hi Fi, PA, Guitar, Car, etc. , each with its own needs.
 
I actually meant insult :)


Thank you for your educating answer. That is what we are here for I assume.


I have almost finished the build of a LCR filter for series use, and I will try it on a similar speaker to hear if it kills the sound. And later on the V30.

I dont´t need it for myself, I just wanted to try out the idea.

Guitarpeople are quite conservative and don´t experiment much with guitar speakers/cabs, like changing opening position and size, and that kind of stuff. The 4x12" was designet by Marshall only for easy transport and looks, and it still is build like then.
 
In general Guitar sound is all about harmonics, which give it its "voice"; deep Bass is not that important, by far, so in practice TS parameters are not that important and in fact famous successful Guitar cabinets are abominations in the lowest octave ... the TS main area.

That said, now and then some Guitar speaker caters to the dropped tuning crowd, and offer something like:

MesaBoogie_1x12ThieleCab_3_1400x.jpg



Mesa Boogie 1x12 Thiele 90 Watt Compact Speaker Cabinet
 
In general Guitar sound is all about harmonics, which give it its "voice"; deep Bass is not that important, by far, so in practice TS parameters are not that important and in fact famous successful Guitar cabinets are abominations in the lowest octave ... the TS main area.

That said, now and then some Guitar speaker caters to the dropped tuning crowd, and offer something like:


Mesa Boogie 1x12 Thiele 90 Watt Compact Speaker Cabinet
MesaBoogie_1x12ThieleCab_3_1400x.jpg
 
I have a couple of V30's, one in a 1x12 cab one in an open backed combo. I like them very much.

I smooth and disperse those highs with a beam blocker. I use about a 6" disk, with a 2.5" hole. This supresses the killer lazer beam of treble, and releases it as more of a point source that spreads out evenly in the room . It works great in the room but makes mic placement more fiddly.

The 1x12 was to replace a 4x12 that was too big for my room. But it didn't sound right to start with, too boxy. What fixed it were some ports tuned just below guitar frequencies.
 
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I actually meant insult :)
I resemble that remark!

The intent is that you can learn from our mistakes, rather than having to repeat them y'self.

Thank you for your educating answer. That is what we are here for I assume.
JM got it clearly.

I've got to the point of seeing the guitar as half the tone, and the amp AND SPEAKER as the other half. We get all wound up about the amp hereabouts but don't mess with the speaker half as much as we should.

Of the half of the half of the tone the speaker does, the driver does half and the box does the other - that's why people buy "impulses response simulators" like the Mooer Radar (or build cab sims like the run off groove Condor

As JohnDH pointed out, you can mess with the cabinet (or more specifically, the bits between the driver and the ear) to add filtering/beam-blocking too.

The same driver can sound completely different in different boxes.
 
Yes I know, I did experiment a lot with that.

Now I have done a test with my filter: 3.9 ohm, 0.33 mH and 12.2 uF in parallel, put in series with the speaker cab.

I only have a Vox 1x12" VOX AC-30 with an old Celestion G12M 8 ohm to test with, that don´t have the ice pick issue that I think the V30 has.

It did not suck the tone out of the amp. I suppose it dipped the frequencies around 2500 Hz, and on top it gave kind of a small hollow flavor, think ´Money for Nothing´.

It sounded pretty good.

I started this because a friend of mine who don´t like the sound of his 2x12" cab, but we are not able to test that for about a month, because of summer holiday in his band. But I look forward to get a second opinion from him. He plays in a blues only band.

But for me it is proved that it can make sense to experiment with a LCR filter.
 
JM got it clearly.

I've got to the point of seeing the guitar as half the tone, and the amp AND SPEAKER as the other half. We get all wound up about the amp hereabouts but don't mess with the speaker half as much as we should. :rolleyes:

Of the half of the half of the tone the speaker does, the driver does half and the box does the other - that's why people buy "impulses response simulators" like the Mooer Radar (or build cab sims like the run off groove
I got it SO clearly that VERY pissed off by not getting the sound I liked I started building my own speakers from scratch.:eek:

Celestion at left, Fahey G12 at right. :)

FWIW long ago also experimented with band stopping resonant LRC filters inside cabinet :) , although stopped doing that because being able to mix and match different cones, voice coils, doping, etc. allowed me to address the problem at the source.

Only "unsolvable" problem in Guitar speakers and you´ll see ALL show it, any brand, is the typical dip around 1500/1700Hz , which is geometrical in origin.
It´s caused by sound wave starting at voice coil, reaching edge and being reflected back; at that frequency the delay makes it appear cancelling, out of phase.

Doping only partially attenuates it.

PA speakers don´t, because way thicker typical cone stops it. also attenuating the typical 2000/3500Hz peak.
But then they are not "guitar" speakers.
 

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