What SMTs are there to solder? I thought the components are all already on the board.
Can you explain this in more detail please? Are you making a loss by selling ODAC boards? What costs are there to add, if you're just re-selling the boards the way you received them?
Turbon ; Sweden ; 1 ODAC ; Option 2 ; black ;
igor0203 ; Slovenia ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
mravlca ; Slovenia ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
Atilla ; Norway ; 1 ODAC ; Option 3 ; black ;
TheShaman ; Greece ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
Finbob ; UK ; 1 ODAC ; Option 2 ; black ; ;
Finbob ; UK ; 1 ODAC ; Option 3 ; black ; ;
robodoc ; Germany ; 2 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
matulo_g ; Slovakia ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
endia ; Turkey ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
timpert ; Netherlands ; 1 ODAC ; Option 3 ; black ;
serios ; UK ; 1 ODAC ; Option 2 ; black ; one O2 PCB
pellesand ; sweden; 2 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
hubsand ; UK ; 2 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
forwidur ; CH, Zurich ; 1 ODAC ; Option 3 ; black;
schuhbu ; Germany ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
Big Brown ; Singapore ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
Nikola Krivorov ; Bulgaria ; 1 ODAC ; Option 2 ; 1 O2 kit and PCB
Gaston ; Sweden; 1 ODAC ; Option 2 ; black ;
mabur ; Germany ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
kjus; Switzerland; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
Edwards.sj ; ??? ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ; O2 kit and PCB - by mail
gebi ; Germany ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ; - by mail
Sindre ; Norway ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ; O2 kit, PCB, 2x Batteries, desktop kit, power supply - by mail
mekanoplastik ; Spain ; 1 ODAC ; option 1 ; ;
danny_66 ; Belgium ; 1 ODAC ; Option 3 ; silver
danny_66 ; Belgium ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ;
sourceror; Netherlands ; 1 ODAC ; option 1 ; ;
miero ; Czech Republic ; 2 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ; KIT-O2-FULL-BLK
daich ; UK ; 1 ODAC ; Option 2 ; black ;
igor0203 ; Slovenia ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
mravlca ; Slovenia ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
Atilla ; Norway ; 1 ODAC ; Option 3 ; black ;
TheShaman ; Greece ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
Finbob ; UK ; 1 ODAC ; Option 2 ; black ; ;
Finbob ; UK ; 1 ODAC ; Option 3 ; black ; ;
robodoc ; Germany ; 2 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
matulo_g ; Slovakia ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
endia ; Turkey ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
timpert ; Netherlands ; 1 ODAC ; Option 3 ; black ;
serios ; UK ; 1 ODAC ; Option 2 ; black ; one O2 PCB
pellesand ; sweden; 2 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
hubsand ; UK ; 2 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
forwidur ; CH, Zurich ; 1 ODAC ; Option 3 ; black;
schuhbu ; Germany ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
Big Brown ; Singapore ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
Nikola Krivorov ; Bulgaria ; 1 ODAC ; Option 2 ; 1 O2 kit and PCB
Gaston ; Sweden; 1 ODAC ; Option 2 ; black ;
mabur ; Germany ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
kjus; Switzerland; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ;
Edwards.sj ; ??? ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ; O2 kit and PCB - by mail
gebi ; Germany ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ; - by mail
Sindre ; Norway ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ; O2 kit, PCB, 2x Batteries, desktop kit, power supply - by mail
mekanoplastik ; Spain ; 1 ODAC ; option 1 ; ;
danny_66 ; Belgium ; 1 ODAC ; Option 3 ; silver
danny_66 ; Belgium ; 1 ODAC ; Option 1 ;
sourceror; Netherlands ; 1 ODAC ; option 1 ; ;
miero ; Czech Republic ; 2 ODAC ; Option 1 ; ; KIT-O2-FULL-BLK
daich ; UK ; 1 ODAC ; Option 2 ; black ;
For the Standalone ODAC, the 3.5mm jack must be hand soldered, as well as two SMT jumper traces to enable it.
Markup on the case-less ODAC boards is not a loss if everything goes smoothly, but it's much lower than the average maker shop would set. The price leaves no room for us to distribute boards to our wholesalers. Prices cannot go down unless Yoyodyne Consulting decides to step away from the project (doubtful, he deserves a cut).
SMT assembly isn't always perfect. New designs are subject to assembly yield of only 75-99.8%, so anywhere from 0.2-25% will be faulty (usually 1% or less). Even if there are only 2 bad boards in the first batch, those need to be identified. We take the same approach as bigger shops and test every board. This adds a small amount of labor, but it means your product shouldn't be DOA.
Markup is not all profit. We have an office, employees, accountants, etc. And then there are our distributors, who expect their prices at least 30% below retail so that they can resell these great products (again: currently not feasible with the ODAC board). When you buy from a reliable shop in this niche market, you're paying for a higher level of service/support, guaranteed products, and ideally better quality. So group buys should be cheaper than retail. While you compare prices, you should be setting your expectations higher from a retail shop. If you see insufficient added value, then don't support the shop!
Great prototype! I love 3d printing, can you make me a RepRap please?
Hehe, it's as much fun as it is useful. Check out Printrbot. We supply their electronics (lowest price in the industry!)
--JDS
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Well, that's certainly news. I'm not sure NwAvGuy had mentioned this - but it does explain the huge price bump I guess. I haven't put any order in yet, but I can imagine some board-only pre-orderers may have "overlooked" this fact.
On the other hand, does this mean an RCA-only ODAC should be cheaper, by not requiring any SMT soldering? Since you are already using a separate case and the ODAC can't drive headphones anyways, why didn't you opt for an RCA-version then? It's not like the 3.5mm output has any benefits - with regard to quality or otherwise. And RCA-to-3.5mm cables are available in abundance too, so this wouldn't have been an issue.
Either way, thanks for the clarification here.
Do you really have wholesalers? I haven't seen the O2 being sold by anyone else other than you and Epiphany (except for some eBay DIY-editions).
Well this is where things get hairy .. I can understand the argument above with the (larger than assumed) extra work (due to the 3.5mm output) for the fully assembled ODAC. But when just re-selling the bare boards the mark up will be mostly just profits - I doubt that you'll have to hire an extra accountant or rent additional office space for the ODAC.
I certainly like that you are helping out NwAvGuy, and thus won't chicken out here, but this doesn't mean that I won't be voicing any criticism when I feel that the details are getting sketchy.
And as for "higher expectations", I think you should maybe re-evaluate the marketplace here. Having a non-DOA guarantee is nice, but given proper RMA-policies DOAs shouldn't even be an issue in the first place. In the US things may be different, but in Germany it is customary to have 2 years limited warranty where the vendor fully covers any shipping expenses. So all things considered, buying from you is in fact riskier than buying from an actual retailer within the country. Should my O2 fail tomorrow, for whatever reason, I'll cost me 2*$7,80 which is about 10% of the O2's price (weirdly enough, with Epiphany in the UK, that is obviously way closer to Germany, shipping rates are much higher - somewhere around 2*$25).
Of course you are the only ones selling O2s and ODACs, so there's little point in discussing how much better other vendors could be. But I just want to stress the fact that I'm sorry but no, you are not really providing any "premium value" compared to an average retailer.
A note about our postage prices - we ship using an insured, tracked service. The Royal Mail changed them all at the beginning of this month so I need to find out how that affects us. Prices will subsequently be moving up/down accordingly (I personally can't stand paying over the odds for postage, so we charge the actual costs we incur). Also, our 2 year warranty covers shipping expenses.
As John pointed out, the costs of offices, our time, additional employees and all the associated ancillaries do not come cheap. Take into account taxes too and yes, there is profit, but it is no where near that of most/all other manufacturers and it is certianly not going to make any of us millionaires!
One other thing to bear in mind, in particular with regards to the ODAC board, is that us vendors are having to drop $10,000+ on buying stock; a very significant risk. The mark ups on the board only are an order of magnitude below standard retail prices that you would expect. Even the cased up version (and cased up O2 amps) being sold today are all well below what one would expect them to retail at from another source - you guys are all getting exceptional value for money.
Hope that clears up a couple of points...
As John pointed out, the costs of offices, our time, additional employees and all the associated ancillaries do not come cheap. Take into account taxes too and yes, there is profit, but it is no where near that of most/all other manufacturers and it is certianly not going to make any of us millionaires!
One other thing to bear in mind, in particular with regards to the ODAC board, is that us vendors are having to drop $10,000+ on buying stock; a very significant risk. The mark ups on the board only are an order of magnitude below standard retail prices that you would expect. Even the cased up version (and cased up O2 amps) being sold today are all well below what one would expect them to retail at from another source - you guys are all getting exceptional value for money.
Hope that clears up a couple of points...
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What about cutting the Hammond 1455B1202 to make two cases for each Hammond purchased? It has the correct dimensions to house the ODAC, and would need to be cut twice to get it to 50mm long since it is 120mm stock. It has rounded edges, but it is already made and available at a 50+ price of $7.40, and you would get two cases out of each one, $3.20 each plus the cost of cutting. Wouldn't it be easier and a lot less expensive to order a bunch of these cases and then have them cut down? Surely the cuts would cost less than having a case custom made. Then each one would have a back panel, since two panels come with each case, and a custom ODAC front panel would have to made, but that has to be done anyway.
It has rounded edges, which some don't seem to like, but that is a small compromise considering the risk and expense of having a custom case extruded.
Perhaps in big enough numbers, Hammond would sell them at the appropriate length, maybe even with cut faceplates. I agree that there should be one case, and it isn't something that I'm able to undertake. You can contact hammond at mjm@hammondmfg.com
Just an idea, don't know if it was already considered and rejected. I was thinking about doing this for my own ODAC, but thought I would share the idea since it would scale well for the one-case-to-rule-them-all.
Thank you for organizing having a case made. I'm looking forward to getting my ODAC and listening!
-Aaron.
It has rounded edges, which some don't seem to like, but that is a small compromise considering the risk and expense of having a custom case extruded.
Perhaps in big enough numbers, Hammond would sell them at the appropriate length, maybe even with cut faceplates. I agree that there should be one case, and it isn't something that I'm able to undertake. You can contact hammond at mjm@hammondmfg.com
Just an idea, don't know if it was already considered and rejected. I was thinking about doing this for my own ODAC, but thought I would share the idea since it would scale well for the one-case-to-rule-them-all.
Thank you for organizing having a case made. I'm looking forward to getting my ODAC and listening!
-Aaron.
The Hammond 1455B1202 was ruled out, with or without modification. Dimensions are still too wide and require a shim, like our "c421" case. And there would be tooling and labor costs for cutting the cases, plus damaged surface finish. It's strongly desirable to perform finishing operations after cutting...that's another lesson we learned last year. It costs more to finish each piece individually, but quality is important.
Custom ODAC extrusions are already in production.
We'll supply the case I previewed yesterday in single quantities for $12-$13 USD, including machine screws. Late June to early July.
we will offer both options, 3.5mm and RCA connection, regarding the assumption that it should be cheaper I have to object, it still needs soldering of the RCA jacks and assembly of the same. so actually this version might be more time cosuming than "5 blobs" of solder SMT vs 8 for the RCA version
ahem... what about me....
neverteless you still need to recognize those factors in your P&L
We as well will offer 2 years of waranty for the build versions we sell, shipping to Switzerland is 3.45€ ;-)
just another ahem... for the "only ones selling O2s and ODACs" section in this paragraph
Stefan
Can't answer until we can see the ODA design.
Yes, here's a partial list (not all have websites): Distributors
Every item price in our shop is set by standard business equations that ensure our business will not lose money. The ODAC didn't fit our equations like usual, because with the ODAC, Yoyodyne is the manufacturer and collects X% as profit, whereas we normally assemble our circuits boards. Thus, we relaxed our pricing equation for the ODAC board price, since minimal labor is involved. The equation was less relaxed for assembled ODAC prices, were we will expend assembly labor.
Check out this recent interview with "Bunny" from Chumby. He addresses the business hurdles a company like ours faces, without being vague.
Feel free to ask more if the above is still "sketchy".
We've filled bulk O2 orders to at least 6 shops in the past month. Most are physical retail stores, rather than online shops.
If one of our products fails, we cover return shipping and have even been known to ship advance replacements at our expense in the rare event that we made a mistake that would be costly to the customer. We've performed warranty service after 2 years for customers free of charge. Technically our policy states 1 year warranty, which is great in the US. But like you, I expect more. My general policy is to honor whatever a customer expects from us.
As for product quality, I will admit that we're not the cheapest manufacturer out there. We never have been, and I can assure you that we never will be.
swalter's goal, as stated here at DIYAudio.com is, "sourcing of the parts at lowest prices". This isn't our goal. We design and source parts the way we would want them made. You can compare pictures of swalter's O2 and ours. Maybe you'll agree that we set prices accordingly, maybe you won't. Ultimately the market will answer the question for us.
This reply is growing rather long, so in conclusion, I hope I've expressed our goals. Please PM me if I've still been vague or sketchy
After the udio.com/forums/head-n-hifi-walter/212387-supplier-errors-stuff-cheap-chips.html"]setback and learnings[/URL] with the O2 cases we placed the order for the slightly larger ODAC enclosure reviewed earlier as well today. Price wise we will be in the same bracket as JDS, no need to compete. Who knows, maybe we swap a couple of cases saving you guys on the shipping cost...
Stefan
^^ Just want to confirm Stefan's note here. After sharing extrusion notes, I look forward to collaborating. Our final extrusion design will be released under an opensource CC license. All of us working together will only make NwAvGuy's projects better.
olli1324 said:
Very well said. Don't think any of us are getting rich.
I resigned from a stable engineering career with one of the largest employers in the US last year, in order to run JDS Labs full time. Pay is less and the hours are sometimes insane, but I love the challenge of making OSHW better for everyone.
I quite enjoyed the level of detail in your answer. Thank you for that.
Unless a moderator, or you yourself object to it, I'd like to keep the discussion here public since some of these concerns have been voiced, more or less directly, in the comments in NwAvGuys blog too. So it might be of a general interest.
That's not what I'm looking for either, but I'm still trying to put things into perspective - when looking at the price difference for an assembled and a bare-board ODAC, there's enough room in there to fit FiiO's E5 twice. So I hope it's somewhat understandable that the first thought was that there's something off here .. or that maybe there would have been smarter approaches to this issue.
Ok, clearly I didn't look closely enough at your site, sorry for that. Still only one of them actually offers the O2 as far as I can tell. At a significant mark-up.
And my guess is that the many other offline-retailers won't be having an issue with the online price either. It's not like the O2/ODAC is the only product they carry that will actually be cheaper available online than in their store. And they do still manage to find customers willing to pay the asking price (since, as I said in my last post, and as the article you linked to confirms, the customers are to some extent actually getting added value in return), so they are clearly catering to a different clientele than you are in your online-store.
That's not a very flattering way to treat of customers - and it's probably what has allowed companies like Groupon to form and unleash the cusomers' wrath back onto these stores, effectively driving at least some them into very real bankruptcy dangers .. I would like to think that as a manufacturer that also sells to its customers directly online, you have a more civilized and less "traditional" approach to this topic.
Nevertheless it was an interesting read, but I'm not sure how much applicability this has with regard to the O2 and the ODAC. The main difference is that with neither the O2 nor the ODAC you have any R&D costs that you actually need to recover. And that was my main concern - as Oliver says:
That is very true. But the order of magnitude difference you are alluding to is mostly due to the lack of R&D expenses that the O2 and ODAC come with. The O2's/ODAC's price should really only cover actual costs (which of course includes not just the BOM but everything else like manufacturing, accounting, retailing, and of course a sufficient profit margin too), but it should in no way try to capitalize on the headroom available to similarly performing products.
That was the point of NwAvGuy's effort at least, and it's why the O2 is open source. I know that ODAC itself isn't open source, but my guess is still that YoYoDyne is not asking prices that would require you to be selling the ODAC at a multiple of the $100 guideline - so they've clearly done their part in this effort too.
Ultimately a $5 or $10 difference doesn't really matter that much, so, in contrast to that article above, you do have some headroom here, or at least I'd like to think so .. but when things approach a $50 difference then it does raise a few eyebrows.
As I said before, I didn't know that the standalone ODAC required additional time from skilled professionals, and thus costs understandably more than just the board + enclosure and faceplates. That does certainly explain a lot.
Yes I realize that the difference in shipping expenses is not your fault. I'm not trying to get any of you into any competition here. Everything considered - power supply, customs, warranty terms, etc. - you pretty much average out to the same price. Plus there's the issue of the enclosure's/faceplates' colors.
But it is weird that (not just with you but in other places too, like eBay) shipments from the US (while still insured) are usually far lower in price than within the EU itself, and especially from the UK.
Still, maybe you'll want to offer your customers the option of shipping your products with an alternative (i.e. non government-owned) company, if there are significant price differences there.
ahem... what about me....
Sorry, my bad - I guess appearances can be deceiving. My impression was that this was essentially still some form of a group buy, with no real company backing it.
ODAC shipping coming closer
As you might have seen the first ODAC boards assembled using the final manufacturing process have been tested by NwAvGuy with satisfying results.
Production has been started now and the Contract Manufacturer will ship on the 18th, two weeks earlier than anticipated.
I summed up all your orders and loaded a spreadsheet up to google docs showing the final costs including postage.
it can be seen here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvX0ocBmHv98dFJJMm5VN0RuTFdvajEzLV9hUFpMSWc
Shipping for all orders within the ECC is calculated with postage costs of "Deutsche Post" your parcels will ship Priority uninsured, insurance per 150 Euro worth of value is 2.05 Euro.
Please send me a PM with your mail address and if you'd like your order insured, I will then send you the details for shipping and payment short before it is actually due.
I will not take any liabillity for any uninsured shippment lost in transit!
First shippments will be the Option 1 orders as the cases are ordered, but will take a bit longer than the ODAC to be shipped to me.
The second round will be all orders including enclosures.
IMPORTANT:
after some discussions here and offline there will be no fully build ODAC including both, 3.5mm and RCA outputs.
I offer both though, either 3.5mm or RCA line out. The later would then be Option 4 as indicated in the spreadsheet.
If you still would like to have both in one unit do not worry, I will offer the back panel and 2 RCA sockets as a small DIY kit for 6.50 CHF. So you will at last smell some solder fumes with the ODAC
The case:
- will measure 62.5 x 73 x 20 mm
- it will be black, brushed and anodized
- Back Panels will be only available in black
- Front Panels Black or Silver
- all panels will be brushed and anodized.
The option for the stand alone version in an O2 case has been skipped, cost for manufacturing the tray alone are in no relation to usage and price.
For those who are not able to send PM's at the moment please send me a mail to info@headnhifi.com
Thanks, Stefan
As you might have seen the first ODAC boards assembled using the final manufacturing process have been tested by NwAvGuy with satisfying results.
Production has been started now and the Contract Manufacturer will ship on the 18th, two weeks earlier than anticipated.
I summed up all your orders and loaded a spreadsheet up to google docs showing the final costs including postage.
it can be seen here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvX0ocBmHv98dFJJMm5VN0RuTFdvajEzLV9hUFpMSWc
Shipping for all orders within the ECC is calculated with postage costs of "Deutsche Post" your parcels will ship Priority uninsured, insurance per 150 Euro worth of value is 2.05 Euro.
Please send me a PM with your mail address and if you'd like your order insured, I will then send you the details for shipping and payment short before it is actually due.
I will not take any liabillity for any uninsured shippment lost in transit!
First shippments will be the Option 1 orders as the cases are ordered, but will take a bit longer than the ODAC to be shipped to me.
The second round will be all orders including enclosures.
IMPORTANT:
after some discussions here and offline there will be no fully build ODAC including both, 3.5mm and RCA outputs.
I offer both though, either 3.5mm or RCA line out. The later would then be Option 4 as indicated in the spreadsheet.
If you still would like to have both in one unit do not worry, I will offer the back panel and 2 RCA sockets as a small DIY kit for 6.50 CHF. So you will at last smell some solder fumes with the ODAC
The case:
- will measure 62.5 x 73 x 20 mm
- it will be black, brushed and anodized
- Back Panels will be only available in black
- Front Panels Black or Silver
- all panels will be brushed and anodized.
The option for the stand alone version in an O2 case has been skipped, cost for manufacturing the tray alone are in no relation to usage and price.
For those who are not able to send PM's at the moment please send me a mail to info@headnhifi.com
Thanks, Stefan
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- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.