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GB: Round #3; Fo-Felix & GB #1 AC Receptacle Enclosure
GB: Round #3; Fo-Felix & GB #1 AC Receptacle Enclosure
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Old 20th July 2018, 06:52 PM   #21
Destroyer OS is offline Destroyer OS  United States
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GB: Round #3; Fo-Felix & GB #1 AC Receptacle Enclosure
Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceistheplace View Post
I’m looking to incorporate MOVs so the project is assembled but at a standstill.
Would be interested in the enclosure but would need to see some more photos before commitment. The blue would be a deal breaker for me as I’m attempting to match my other components.
Why not just do a front/backplate design for one of the diyaudio store chassis?
—-
Secondary Q
Any thoughts on MOVs and best way to integrate with the Fo-Felix?
If one is building a multi outlet Fo-Felix, I imagine one MOV implementation at the input would suffice?
Also from what I understand some MOVs have a built in thermal fuse and a third leg that can be used for an indicator LED. So as long as the LED remains lit, the thermal fuse incorporated in the MOV is still good and the MOV is still providing protection.
Most implementations I’ve seen have one MOV each from Line-to-Ground, Line-to-Neutral, and Neutral-to-Ground.
An accompanying daughter board for MOVs (or TVS) would be huge. I don’t see why this wouldn’t be a default feature? Is there some downside to MOVs I’m not aware of?
To drop 200 on a line filter box and not have surge protection would be wasteful and just adds boxes to an already cluttered rack.
Black will probably more likely be the color if not silver. I just thought the blue was super cool.

Here's a diagram of how MOV's can be used. Just put them before the Fo-Felix. The inductance of the Fo-Felix will actually help the MOV's work better.

People are using the Fo-Felix inside amps and things as well as in distribution. I'll draft up a MOV board perhaps soon, and/or look at other surge tech that could be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceistheplace View Post
That $1,600 unit is insane.... 2 outlets? What’s inside the thing? Well, I found out: a bunch of Teflon capacitors.
So, not really comparing apples to apples.
Sorry but don’t agree that it’s better than buying commercial when you have to shop around to slide in at under $500 not counting man hours / psychic energy.
What about the TOTL Furman 20i, which has 20A, 12 inputs, digital readout etc?
2k retail probably half that or less used.
Furman SPR 20i Power Conditioner-Audio Advisor
Here’s the 15i model for $1,295
Furman IT-reference 15i Discrete Symmetrical AC Power Source | Reverb
Of course there’s other models at lesser price points as well.
Point being for $500 in diy I don’t see why one should be comparing with outlandish $1,600 2 receptacle filters.
For the $1,600 specified retail I’d expect at least:
Digital readout
Sequenced start-up
Remote on/off
MOV
EMI/RFI filtering
ICE
Catastrophic voltage shutdown
Transient suppression
Here’s 7 outlets for $400 with a lot of these features, box included:
Furman Elite 15i (7-outlet Edition) Power line conditioner and surge protector at Crutchfield.com
Just my two cents that at $500 you have to come to grips with the fact that it’s a one trick pony / incomplete solution and the whole thing begins to feel less justified.
First it should be noted that Teflon capacitors anywhere near line voltages will generate 3rd harmonics. That's part of the "magic" from those units. PP caps don't generate anything. So I'd argue the Fo-Felix is a big step up if you aren't into coloration.

I've never liked the sound from Furman. The transformers are small and they make a few (IMO) classic mistakes with their filters. If you want a good transformer unit spend more (a lot) and go with Torus AVR20+. I wouldn't fiddle with the other stuff at all. I'm not even fully convinced that isolation transformers provide sound I like. (I haven't heard a stereo with one that was spot-on yet, but it certainly is possible I just haven't heard the right stereo). The Torus are much larger and the AVR function prevents sag, which otherwise makes the units only really good for TV's, Streamers, and Blu-Ray.

The Fo-Felix is about filtration (and celebration of DIY). It should be no surprise that it appears not to compete with chinese made surge protectors from Furman. Since it does not inherently have surge protection this makes perfect sense. The Furman doesn't offer individual isolation for each socket... not even close. What you get is a tin can with surge protection, and some dishonest noise measurements. It's not hard to tell that their one big CMC and a couple (poorly used IMO) caps couldn't possible filter more than a 25mh Comoco with more capacitance. So how do they get their numbers? They use test simulations that don't act anything like the real world. Most companies do 50-50ohm and that's ridiculous, at best.

Where's Furman showing you their current response or settling time? They're making Surge Protectors that look good in a home theater. We are not competitors. They make money off of tin cans, I make music.

I have to admit that enclosure you found is pretty awesome for DIY. I see no reason why people shouldn't use it. The one I'm going for does 8 outlets instead of 6, it's less bulky looking, and IMO really nice that it doesn't have an LED. I'm having one made up so we'll see what everyone thinks of the aesthetics. (to be honest I'm shocked you found that thing, I've been looking for ages, as have other people, that's the first time seeing it)






PierreQuiRoule

Nice find. I'm not sure how you guys found those... believe me, I've SEARCHED. I don't get it. The front cutout is sorta weird, and I wouldn't really want the inlet to not be on the same side as the sockets, but still pretty nice.




Maybe no one is going to want my enclosure. We'll see. I certainly can't compete with China in the exact same way they do.

Last edited by Destroyer OS; 20th July 2018 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 20th July 2018, 06:59 PM   #22
Destroyer OS is offline Destroyer OS  United States
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GB: Round #3; Fo-Felix & GB #1 AC Receptacle Enclosure
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRN View Post
Jeremy,

I’ll take 4 boards. If I use the Fo-Felix with my Folsom amp with Antipole do you think it will make a positive improvement?

Thank you,
Brad
I always plug mine into a 25mh Comoco. At first I was like, maybe the Comoco isn't big enough because some sound isn't as "loud" sounding, but on further listening I realized it was just enoise making parts of the music sound less defined and louder. The richness of the actual music is definitely an improvement with more filtration. You simply learn that some tracks are not as dynamic as maybe you thought, and others are way more dynamic than you thought.

Last edited by Destroyer OS; 20th July 2018 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 21st July 2018, 06:35 AM   #23
spaceistheplace is offline spaceistheplace
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GB: Round #3; Fo-Felix & GB #1 AC Receptacle Enclosure
Default GB: Round #3; Fo-Felix & GB #1 AC Receptacle Enclosure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destroyer OS View Post
Black will probably more likely be the color if not silver. I just thought the blue was super cool.
Black matches everything.

Quote:

Here's a diagram of how MOV's can be used. Just put them before the Fo-Felix. The inductance of the Fo-Felix will actually help the MOV's work better.
Can you explain ďGDTĒ?

Quote:
People are using the Fo-Felix inside amps and things as well as in distribution. I'll draft up a MOV board perhaps soon, and/or look at other surge tech that could be used.
Thatís why I suggested a daughter board. I think itís wasteful to use in one amp.... especially with how people around here go through amps.

My thought is they are likely doing this because they are then plugging that amp with the Fo-Felix into their existing power conditioner or surge protector unit.

Thatís where my thinking personally went.

BC do you really want to plug in the stuff you toiled over making with zero surge protection? Thatís bananas in my book.

Quote:
First it should be noted that Teflon capacitors anywhere near line voltages will generate 3rd harmonics. That's part of the "magic" from those units.
Iíd use a different, less savory word than magic.

Quote:
PP caps don't generate anything. So I'd argue the Fo-Felix is a big step up if you aren't into coloration.
Iíd argue that means itís an awful and unfair comparison which is beneath you.

ďLook at how much better this sensible design is than this overpriced two outlet Teflon stuffed 3rd harmonic distortion generator sold by the delusional to rob from the gullible.Ē

Quote:
I've never liked the sound from Furman. The transformers are small and they make a few (IMO) classic mistakes with their filters. If you want a good transformer unit spend more (a lot) and go with Torus AVR20+. I wouldn't fiddle with the other stuff at all. I'm not even fully convinced that isolation transformers provide sound I like. (I haven't heard a stereo with one that was spot-on yet, but it certainly is possible I just haven't heard the right stereo). The Torus are much larger and the AVR function prevents sag, which otherwise makes the units only really good for TV's, Streamers, and Blu-Ray.
Thereís plenty of other examples.

I invite you to find a better example which to you gives great performance at great value.

Quote:
The Fo-Felix is about filtration (and celebration of DIY). It should be no surprise that it appears not to compete with chinese made surge protectors from Furman. Since it does not inherently have surge protection this makes perfect sense. The Furman doesn't offer individual isolation for each socket... not even close. What you get is a tin can with surge protection, and some dishonest noise measurements.
Let me note you just complimented my suggested Chinese case, as well as the BOM chokes, capacitors, resistors are Chinese. And even perhaps the PCBs? The hookup wire and sockets will likely be Chinese. Not sure of your pcb source.

The only thing definitely not Chinese is (many of) us and our labor and thatís not incorporated into a cost comparison.

With all due respect to the Chinese at diyaudio, of course.

Again Iíd argue the $1,600 Teflon unit is orders of magnitude more dishonest.

As far as Furman Tbh this doesnít look like a tin can to me.

IMG_0124.JPG

Certainly more value id argue than your suggestion.

To be clear Iím not intimately familiar with the 20i or 15i I honestly was just trying to drive home a concept rather than dissect an example.

Quote:
Where's Furman showing you their current response or settling time? They're making Surge Protectors that look good in a home theater. We are not competitors. They make money off of tin cans, I make music.
Again, Furman was just an example. The Yulong Sabre P18 is another low cost example. Looks like itís closer to your conception.

IMG_0121.JPG

However please choose your own example of course, what I meant was why not take the opportunity to make a fair comparison against something you feel is a good value rather than take a cheap shot at a $1,600 snake oil rip.

Quote:
I have to admit that enclosure you found is pretty awesome for DIY. I see no reason why people shouldn't use it. The one I'm going for does 8 outlets instead of 6, it's less bulky looking, and IMO really nice that it doesn't have an LED. I'm having one made up so we'll see what everyone thinks of the aesthetics. (to be honest I'm shocked you found that thing, I've been looking for ages, as have other people, that's the first time seeing it)
Was in the first page or so of ďPSU Aluminum ChassisĒ search term on eBay.

The power readout is nice as well. Would be nicer if it was dimmer and not red.

......

Anyhow let me be clear I wasnít trying to **** on your parade. I think your AC filter is great.

I know you canít compete with China for manufacturing. I donít expect that. $200 isnít a killer for me compared to $100, but it starts the descent into ďhesitation modeĒ when itís purpose limited and I will need to plug it into YET ANOTHER BOX or surge protection unit to keep my gear safe.

The diyaudio store has some nice options and you could just do a front and back panel. Makes life really easy for people all over the world to source it.

Does your pcb fit their chassis baseplate guidelines?

Either way Iím not against the chassis. What I mean is that I think it would be wise to come closer to justifying the outlay in cost with additional functionality or else it may make many pause and reconsider. I donít think many will bite without More to offer.

I also donít think it would be ďhardĒ to incorporate some of them. It multiplies the incentive.

I was trying to increase the reach of your creation, and increase the group buy count.

Keep in mind I was the guy who first SUGGESTED the case in the last group buy thread, although admittedly I was thinking front panel express layouts for hifi2000 not fully assembled units due to shipping considerations making it impractical.

So, Iím on your side. I just think you can do one better ;-)
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Last edited by spaceistheplace; 21st July 2018 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 21st July 2018, 07:53 AM   #24
Destroyer OS is offline Destroyer OS  United States
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GB: Round #3; Fo-Felix & GB #1 AC Receptacle Enclosure
Perhaps I should just coming up with DIY projects all together?

GDT is gas discharge tube.

You could plug the Fo-Felix into a "brickwall" or "surgex" but you'll reduce dynamics some most likely. Many may like the more refined sense of it however. They are the best surge protection there is, but are better for sources than amps, and really best for video, computer, and such.

My tin can comment is geared towards the inexpensive 15ti unit you mentioned. But the Yulong Sabre P18 is basically the same thing but with presumably worse surge protection. From what I can see it has some choices I would not make, and not great surge protection. The problem with MOV's is they are very limited. That's why people use several in parallel (and I probably will to). So you pretty much need something else to help take on the load. GDT works because they are slower but can pass and clamp extensively higher amounts.

The Furman's pro line that's AR spec'd does voltage regulation but only has a single CMC and some caps for all the sockets.

The Furman reference line has large transformers but zero voltage regulation so they can sag extensively easier than Torus models.

You would need to combine a $1300 and $2500 Furman into a Frankenstein setup to equal one Torus. And you still wouldn't get isolation between your equipment.



While I don't recommend teflon capacitors on line voltages, I won't deny some people are very happy with their teflon capacitor based conditioners. If they want them, that's fine, I'm just not going to lie and say they don't offer a form of coloration. I have no problem with Audience Adept as people or a company, I'm just... honest to a fault about some things. Maybe I should shut up, because I don't have ill feelings towards companies no matter how silly their marketing lingo may be - well, mostly, most companies are just answering demands.

So I continue to think the Fo-Felix is a bargain for anyone willing to DIY. I think it's a bargain compared to the Yulong as well, which was like $500-600, offering marginal surge protection, and a so-so filter.


I didn't think to search "PSU" but rather things like AC distribution, power strip, etc.


It might be possible for me to do a plate for a DIYstore enclosure, but I kind of feel like, why bother? It seems like a convoluted way to go about to me. Maybe you haven't noticed but I try to make things rather pleasurable, provide some good documentation, and answer lots of questions. I think of my DIY projects as being slightly on a luxury side of DIY. They are kept fairly simple, (hopefully) some what elegant, to encourage DIY participation. But above all they all exist to sound really good so that the DIY effort exudes a lot of value in labor. I think the Yulong shows that even a simple filter can cost $500-600, but your labor can achieve something better in sound for sub $100 or so.


P.S. I have numerous guys from China that order PCB's. They're great dudes. They appreciate ordering from Mouser and/or whatever channels I use to get strictly official, passed tests, parts, and PCBs. It's horribly ironic that sourcing things from china in different ways can give such drastically different results.
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Old 21st July 2018, 05:38 PM   #25
spaceistheplace is offline spaceistheplace
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GB: Round #3; Fo-Felix & GB #1 AC Receptacle Enclosure
Default GB: Round #3; Fo-Felix & GB #1 AC Receptacle Enclosure

I donít want to compare devices at all, but rather features.

Please choose your own example as I said.

Simply put:

For $500 outlay I think people would want to integrate surge suppression and possibly some other features.

Especially if the felix box may replace an existing unit with those safety features.

Many who may not be as technically savvy as yourself tend to assume such features would be contained in a power distribution unit such as what you suggested.

They may not have the ability to integrate said features themselves with much confidence.

I saw a lukewarm response to #3 and was trying to offer a helpful suggestion as to perhaps why.

I have different views on the panels I suppose.

I definitely do not share your acceptance of suspect marketing tactics. I find that deplorable.
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Last edited by spaceistheplace; 21st July 2018 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 21st July 2018, 05:54 PM   #26
Destroyer OS is offline Destroyer OS  United States
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GB: Round #3; Fo-Felix & GB #1 AC Receptacle Enclosure
GB #3 has gone well, the enclosure people just aren't sure about.

Marketing... it's what it is. It fills expectations. When I find it offensive is when it isn't a heavily coded way of saying something true, but an utter astounding lie.

I'm looking at protection setup. It is interesting choosing MOV's knowing they have a limited life span, but do work - anything that last forever has a sonic drawback. There are high quality surge suppressors you can mount at your breaker box. I think those are a decent level of defense.
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Old 21st July 2018, 06:19 PM   #27
spaceistheplace is offline spaceistheplace
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Yes I was referring to GB #3-#1 I suppose.

Anyhow replacing an MOV is easier than replacing an amplifier.

You could use multiple sets.

An LED would inform the user that replacement is required.

A identifier on the panel for a given Led could correlate with its label on the pcb silkscreen.

Ive seen similar implementations.

On another note this fellow built this for ~400 apparently:

Power Distribution, Sequencing, and Filtering Project

Similarly I intend to integrate filtering, surge protection and remote on/off or on/off triggering based on preamp signal.

Without it everything tends to stay much more than is required, which I find wasteful and unnecessary.

Voltage readout and staggered turn on to avoid potentially speaker damaging pops when pre/power is turned on simultaneously are also planned.
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Old 21st July 2018, 06:29 PM   #28
Vunce is offline Vunce  United States
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GB: Round #3; Fo-Felix & GB #1 AC Receptacle Enclosure
Hey guys,
Check these out for surge protection. They are made from MOVís and avalanche diodeís, they are plugged in on the same AC line circuit as your audio system. When protection is needed, a short-circuit is created causing your breaker to trip cutting the power to anything on that circuit. The benefit is that none of your audio equipment has to actually ďseeĒ the MOVís in their power path.

Yalu Bulala
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Old 21st July 2018, 08:06 PM   #29
drpro is offline drpro  United States
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GB: Round #3; Fo-Felix & GB #1 AC Receptacle Enclosure
Alright Jeremy here is Fo-Felix in the wild. Just completed my Pass M2. I had decided I would include it in the build.
Playing now, I can hear no noise from the speakers!!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg M2 2.jpg (865.2 KB, 205 views)
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Old 21st July 2018, 08:13 PM   #30
spaceistheplace is offline spaceistheplace
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GB: Round #3; Fo-Felix & GB #1 AC Receptacle Enclosure
I appreciate the link but why not create pluggable MOVs that go into a socket or attach to a keystone post in the unit?

According to Destroyer, the MOVs are a good thing before the Fo-Felix

Seems like a design for the diy-adverse.

Varistors are ~$1.

These are $55 for 3 and you have to toss the plug when itís done.
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