I have been building speakers and amplifiers for the past few years, and have been through my fair share of transactions with various loudspeaker and amplifier manufacturers, mainly buying kits and components. Most if not all of these have been straightforward and mutually beneficial. My recent interactions with Dr. Geddes have been unpleasant at best, insulting at worst. I know others have obviously had successful transactions, I'm only here to explain my side of an ongoing battle with Dr. Geddes, and to hear other peoples feedback on what they would do. Maybe I'm overreacting, but I feel unsatisfied walking away from this transaction.
I originally bought a set of GedLee waveguides from another forum member here in the swap meet. This was a product made by Earl, and after emailing him he confirmed that he could get me the remaining parts to build a set of Nathans. He promptly responded to my emails, and was helpful with getting me plans so that I could start the build process. I paid at the beginning of July, and received the drivers a week and a half later. The crossovers did not arrive, and after a few emails to Earl I received them half way through October, three months later. This was not a problem, as the cabinets were still under construction, and I am someone who understands how busy things can get.
Earl had previously sent me a schematic of the crossover, and upon inspection of the parts I had received, many of them were incorrect with the updated schematic that had been included. The parts for the old schematic were sent, so I emailed Earl and asked him what to do. Because he was in China at the time, he told me he would get back to me in a month and get things back on track. I never got a response, but I understood how things get busy and buried under more important matters. After another couple emails, I got in touch with Early and asked about the crossover status. This is where things began to get ugly, as I assumed I would be getting the updated crossover parts as that was the schematic I was originally sent months earlier. Earl stated that I had parts to make a crossover that would work just fine, and that I also bought the parts second hand, so I should accept that and move on. This was naturally difficult for me, as I had sunk a good $1200+ into this project, and I was a bit disappointed that I was brushed off so easily. I was told the updated schematic made a noticeable improvement in audio quality, so it didn't make any sense to stick with the old one with so much money invested. Not to mention that the ONLY parts bought second hand were the baffles, which were still his product that he had been paid for. Upon questioning this and asking to get a phone call to discuss things, I received a response a week later, stating that I would not get a call as I was being "wholly unreasonable", and that I was not worth his time. This came as an especially shocking slap to the face, and it is when I decided that I would not be perusing any further interaction with Dr. Geddes. I am not saying this is how all interactions will be, just a word of warning based on my experience. If it seems like I am overreacting, I would appreciate some feedback.
I originally bought a set of GedLee waveguides from another forum member here in the swap meet. This was a product made by Earl, and after emailing him he confirmed that he could get me the remaining parts to build a set of Nathans. He promptly responded to my emails, and was helpful with getting me plans so that I could start the build process. I paid at the beginning of July, and received the drivers a week and a half later. The crossovers did not arrive, and after a few emails to Earl I received them half way through October, three months later. This was not a problem, as the cabinets were still under construction, and I am someone who understands how busy things can get.
Earl had previously sent me a schematic of the crossover, and upon inspection of the parts I had received, many of them were incorrect with the updated schematic that had been included. The parts for the old schematic were sent, so I emailed Earl and asked him what to do. Because he was in China at the time, he told me he would get back to me in a month and get things back on track. I never got a response, but I understood how things get busy and buried under more important matters. After another couple emails, I got in touch with Early and asked about the crossover status. This is where things began to get ugly, as I assumed I would be getting the updated crossover parts as that was the schematic I was originally sent months earlier. Earl stated that I had parts to make a crossover that would work just fine, and that I also bought the parts second hand, so I should accept that and move on. This was naturally difficult for me, as I had sunk a good $1200+ into this project, and I was a bit disappointed that I was brushed off so easily. I was told the updated schematic made a noticeable improvement in audio quality, so it didn't make any sense to stick with the old one with so much money invested. Not to mention that the ONLY parts bought second hand were the baffles, which were still his product that he had been paid for. Upon questioning this and asking to get a phone call to discuss things, I received a response a week later, stating that I would not get a call as I was being "wholly unreasonable", and that I was not worth his time. This came as an especially shocking slap to the face, and it is when I decided that I would not be perusing any further interaction with Dr. Geddes. I am not saying this is how all interactions will be, just a word of warning based on my experience. If it seems like I am overreacting, I would appreciate some feedback.
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I was thinking about buying some of the Gedlee kits, but after that i did some research, i decided not to.
I was asking if i can buy the Nathan kits without speakers, because the shipping to my country will be very expensive given the heavyweight of BC drivers.
He agreed and offered me those for a half price of complete kit (which IS including all the speakers and finished crossovers) so i was close to ordering two empty baffles with waveguides for 1200 USD (not cheap, is it). Just to be sure i asked if both crossovers are part of the price
and Dr. Geddes has responded that they are NOT and he can send me the PARTS ONLY for both crossovers and asked 300 USD for them. And that was it for me. I can only say that from my short corespondece with Dr. Geddes i started to think that he is focused on making as much money as possible and his way of doing it is very far from the spirit of this forum,where people are trying to help each other to great sound.Lot of people here helped me with my questions and asked nothing in advance.
My opinion also is that his products are totally and crazy overpriced, with very low finishing quality, i have seen many pictures of very disapointed customers who have paid premium price and received malfunctional product looking like cheap garage work.
I was asking if i can buy the Nathan kits without speakers, because the shipping to my country will be very expensive given the heavyweight of BC drivers.
He agreed and offered me those for a half price of complete kit (which IS including all the speakers and finished crossovers) so i was close to ordering two empty baffles with waveguides for 1200 USD (not cheap, is it). Just to be sure i asked if both crossovers are part of the price
and Dr. Geddes has responded that they are NOT and he can send me the PARTS ONLY for both crossovers and asked 300 USD for them. And that was it for me. I can only say that from my short corespondece with Dr. Geddes i started to think that he is focused on making as much money as possible and his way of doing it is very far from the spirit of this forum,where people are trying to help each other to great sound.Lot of people here helped me with my questions and asked nothing in advance.
My opinion also is that his products are totally and crazy overpriced, with very low finishing quality, i have seen many pictures of very disapointed customers who have paid premium price and received malfunctional product looking like cheap garage work.
Well Earl is a manufacturer, and a vendor. IMO you expectations of what he should do in these transactions is unrealistic. If you had bought completed products or complete kits you expect a certain level of service, if on the other hand you get bits and pieces and want Earl to fill in the blanks and not make as much (if any) money I wouldn't expect the same level of service at all.
Earl has published his equations in his book IIRC and has revealed what drivers he uses and important information like radius's required to minimize diffraction (according to Earl an important audible distortion as opposed to 2nd harmonic distortion which isn't troublesome). He has also been very forthcoming with the DIY community about criteria in amplification and how to get the best bass response in real listening spaces.
His products represent great value IMO.
Not affiliated with GedLee in any capacity.
Earl has published his equations in his book IIRC and has revealed what drivers he uses and important information like radius's required to minimize diffraction (according to Earl an important audible distortion as opposed to 2nd harmonic distortion which isn't troublesome). He has also been very forthcoming with the DIY community about criteria in amplification and how to get the best bass response in real listening spaces.
His products represent great value IMO.
Not affiliated with GedLee in any capacity.
One of the hallmarks of a successful business is managing customers' expectations. Here, the OP received an email indicating that Dr. Geddes was willing to help. Yet it appears either that initial email was misleading or that Dr. Geddes changed his mind during the process. Thus the OP isn't being unreasonable in his expectations here.
I followed it without any difficulties. Where do you get that notion from?
I have no idea as I haven't been a customer. I do have some experience though of interaction with Dr. Geddes, and I don't find the OP's story out of character.
Which endeavour? His whole business or his interaction with the OP?
Let's stick to the facts, and not speculation.
Ok,to support my opinion let's have look on some info openly available on the web. Some of it even on this forum. You can judge the interaction with Dr.Geddes yourself. I am adding some pics of his high quality products as well.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/127152-building-nathan-10-a.html
HTGuide Forum - View Single Post - Has anyone looked at Earl Geddes Nathan10?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/gedl...peaker-kit-66.html?postid=1586624#post1586624
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/gedl...peaker-kit-65.html?postid=1586520#post1586520
High Efficiency Speaker Asylum - It happened more than once - WithTarragon - August 17, 2008 at 08:24:51
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/122483-high-efficiency-speaker-budget-us-1000-00-a.html
And here some sumarized observations
SOCIAL AUDIO DISTORTION FORUM :: View topic - Geddes Summa Loudspeaker Kit
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/127152-building-nathan-10-a.html
HTGuide Forum - View Single Post - Has anyone looked at Earl Geddes Nathan10?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/gedl...peaker-kit-66.html?postid=1586624#post1586624
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/gedl...peaker-kit-65.html?postid=1586520#post1586520
High Efficiency Speaker Asylum - It happened more than once - WithTarragon - August 17, 2008 at 08:24:51
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/122483-high-efficiency-speaker-budget-us-1000-00-a.html
And here some sumarized observations
SOCIAL AUDIO DISTORTION FORUM :: View topic - Geddes Summa Loudspeaker Kit
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The only thing I didn't purchase from Earl was the baffle, which was still his product. All the other "bits and pieces" were bought directly from Earl, so I don't feel like I was being too unreasonable in my expectations. As for Earls contributions to the community, I never questioned this, nor did I question the value. I for one feel like I paid a fair price, and the service I received was reasonable UNTIL the issue with the crossovers.
For the money I paid on this project overall (over $1200 at this point), the crossovers are a minimal investment to correct on my own. Being treated rudely and being blown off for a mistake that was deemed unworthy of a vendors time is what got to me, which is what I tried to illustrate in my original post. And as I state earlier, I felt like the price I paid was fair, although I know others will disagree.
Correct, he sent me the updated schematic after I originally paid, and when I received the parts three months later, it was not the parts on the schematic, but parts for an older version. Even then, the parts aren't the proper value of the old version, some values are significantly different. Just to illustrate, I'll give the values that are required on the schematic followed by the values I have:
Capacitors:
2 x 15uf, I have 18uf caps - 20% difference
2 x 10uf, I have 12uf caps - 20% difference
2 x 6uf, I have 8uf caps - 33% difference
2 x 30uf, I have 30uf caps
2 x 2uf, I have 2uf caps
Resistors:
2 x 3 ohm, I have 2.2 ohm - 36% difference
2 x 2 ohm, I have 2.2 ohm - 10% difference
2 x 5 ohm, I have 4.7 ohm - 6% difference
2 x 4 ohm, I have 3.9 ohm - 2.5% difference
2 x 5 ohm, I have 5 ohm
2 x 10 ohm, I have 10 ohm
Some differences (less than 10%) I can understand. But this is just sloppy. I have values that are up to 36% different than what is on the older schematic. So not only did I not receive the product promised, I received something that isn't really all that close to spec.
I think the good doctor needs to offer his view on this.
In light of his adherence to values that required more than we are capable of,
as if to say: so you need not bother with diy, just buy the kit from me...
How can the actions be reconciled with the expressed standards of quality?
How can mis-matched components provide all that a kit is supposed to?
Is this on track?
In light of his adherence to values that required more than we are capable of,
as if to say: so you need not bother with diy, just buy the kit from me...
How can the actions be reconciled with the expressed standards of quality?
How can mis-matched components provide all that a kit is supposed to?
Is this on track?
Yes, I should offer my view.
The crossover schematics change in detail quite often, this is because the parts availability changes, lower cost parts, etc. Of key importance here is the fact that these changes rarely produce any significant effect on the crossover they are for convenience only. Mr Wujek was mistakenly sent a different crossover schematic than what would have been correct at the time he bought the parts (he assumes "newer", but that cannot be confirmed either way as I do not know what he was originally sent). He was then sent the correct schematic for his parts set. He was not satisfied. He wanted me to buy him a completly new set of parts using the latest schematic - more than a year after his original purchase. So basically he got everything that I agreed to, but he wanted more. The total sale to him was something like $350 of which I might have made maybe something like $50. His expectations of a completely new set of parts is unreasonable.
I would alos like to point out that since Mr. Wujek did not buy his original parts from me, I was under no obligation whatever to go any further with him in helping him to complete his speakers. I did so as a courtesy to him. This kind of thing is precisely why I do not do sell seperate parts anymore. You help someone out and they turn arround and want even more.
The crossover schematics change in detail quite often, this is because the parts availability changes, lower cost parts, etc. Of key importance here is the fact that these changes rarely produce any significant effect on the crossover they are for convenience only. Mr Wujek was mistakenly sent a different crossover schematic than what would have been correct at the time he bought the parts (he assumes "newer", but that cannot be confirmed either way as I do not know what he was originally sent). He was then sent the correct schematic for his parts set. He was not satisfied. He wanted me to buy him a completly new set of parts using the latest schematic - more than a year after his original purchase. So basically he got everything that I agreed to, but he wanted more. The total sale to him was something like $350 of which I might have made maybe something like $50. His expectations of a completely new set of parts is unreasonable.
I would alos like to point out that since Mr. Wujek did not buy his original parts from me, I was under no obligation whatever to go any further with him in helping him to complete his speakers. I did so as a courtesy to him. This kind of thing is precisely why I do not do sell seperate parts anymore. You help someone out and they turn arround and want even more.
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First, let's get some basic facts straight. I paid you $800, not $350. If this cost you $300, than by my calculation you made $500 on this interaction, which I really don't mind, I realize you have to make money. As for the year later comment, I don't think you can simply pin that on me. It took 3 months just to receive the crossover parts, and after that you were very difficult to reach. I emailed you twice after receiving them regarding the value discrepancy, you told me you were in China for the next month, and to email you again in another month. I emailed again and did not get a response other than that you would get back to me eventually. I moved, finished the cabinets a few months later, and yes, after all that it had been almost a year.
I did not want all new parts. I wanted parts to match the crossover schematic which I was sent and told was the latest version, which would have changed only some of the values. I also told you I would be happy to send the parts back, I just don't see how you can repeatedly call me unreasonable. After emailing you, you told me that you must have sent parts for an older version, and that you would get back to me with a schematic that would function. I never received this till our recent interactions, and even then I was left with parts that aren't that close.
For the last time, the only non original part that I did not buy from you was the baffles, which are still your product that you sold to another forum member (and made a profit on). I paid just as much/more than those who bought complete kits from you when you add what I paid for the baffles. Of course you had no obligation to help me, but I am quite proficient at sourcing parts myself and would have done so in retrospect. Even if I had only bought the crossovers, I would expect you to at least be accountable for what you sell. "You help someone out and they turn arround and want even more." Are you serious? You clearly made a profit, and all I'm asking for is a replacement for incorrect parts that I received.
I guess you also bought the woofers from me as well which would have pushed the price up by another $400, so I made a little more.
As to my availabilty that is simply the fact that I almost spend more time out of the country than I do in it. I am Diamond Elite on Delta - 150k miles in one year. So I am not going to make excuses for my not being easy to reach. At any rate, it took you over a year to complete the enclosures and not because of anything that I did. This delay was your doing.
The bottom line here is that you have received everything that I said that I would sell to you - period.
And you did want to send me the old parts back and get an entirely new set, based on my latest crossover design, which I was not about to do because I have no use for the old parts and a new set would have cost me a couple of hundred dollars. You have the parts and a schematic that will result in a system that is audibly identical to any other Nathan.
Your complaints are unfounded.
As to my availabilty that is simply the fact that I almost spend more time out of the country than I do in it. I am Diamond Elite on Delta - 150k miles in one year. So I am not going to make excuses for my not being easy to reach. At any rate, it took you over a year to complete the enclosures and not because of anything that I did. This delay was your doing.
The bottom line here is that you have received everything that I said that I would sell to you - period.
And you did want to send me the old parts back and get an entirely new set, based on my latest crossover design, which I was not about to do because I have no use for the old parts and a new set would have cost me a couple of hundred dollars. You have the parts and a schematic that will result in a system that is audibly identical to any other Nathan.
Your complaints are unfounded.
Means a lot of seat-time, presumably hopping DTW to China...as a buddy of mine used to say when we did a lot of such travel as automobile engineers "that's a flight you have to sober up on 3 times." Hmmm, with on-board wifi and 13 hour flight-time that would allow ample time to, for instance, keep up with e-mail!!
On-board Wi-Fi does not work on international flights. And E-mail from China is not always easy as they have some serious fire-wall issues. I do not go to a major city, but a fairly small village. The factory has no heat, and very unreliable internet. AT any rate, this issue in not really about my availability.
I want the readers to know what this is really about.
Chris took over a year to finish his speakers and he had the parts for the crossover for most of this time. He notified me of some value discrepancies with the schematic. I promised to send him the crossover schematic for his parts set when he got ready to build it. In the mean time I changed the Nathan design to the Nathan-10a and changed the crossover. Chris heard from someone that had changed their crossover (they bought all new parts as I don't upgrade older crossovers - no one is going to do that) that the change was "significantly better". I am not sure thats true, but anyways, Chris asked me if I would take back the parts that he had and send him a set of new parts for the new crossover. I said that I would not do that because I could not use the parts that he would send me and I would have to pay for the new parts and I don't do that for anyone not even people who buy their kits directly from me, which he did not. I told Chris that I would send him the new schematic, but he would have to buy the new parts set (I will still do that, in fact, just as I do for all of my customers, even though,in his case, he did not buy the cabinets from me), or I would send him the older schematic as we had originally agreed to. Chris did not like this answer and threatened to take his complaint to the internet (to-wit) hoping to intimidate me into doing what he wanted. I still declined and sent him the correct schematic for his parts set.
And thus the agreement was completed as stated. That Chris is not satisfied is unfortunate, but doing what he wants would short change all of my other customers who have older crossover designs - the ones who are more reasonable.
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