Re: Re: the missing pieces....
After our discussion in '04, I started doing the "multiple sub" routine. I agree, it sounds better. One unexpected side effect is that you can get away with stupid cheap drivers, because you don't need much power handling.
My garage looks like a speaker warehouse, I probably have a hundred drivers. So when I built my subs, I literally found half a dozen woofers, then measured them one-by-one with the PE Woofer Tester until I found three that had the right Thiele Small specs for my enclosure. One of the best candidates was a craaptastic MTX Blue Thunder woofer that I bought used off of Ebay for $40! Actually, Blue Thunder was hot stuff at the time, but that was almost 20 years ago.
To make a long story short, you CAN make really cheap subs if you can find a place to hide them. The use of an exotic $300 subwoofer driver is overkill sometimes.
gedlee said:
After our discussion in '04, I started doing the "multiple sub" routine. I agree, it sounds better. One unexpected side effect is that you can get away with stupid cheap drivers, because you don't need much power handling.
My garage looks like a speaker warehouse, I probably have a hundred drivers. So when I built my subs, I literally found half a dozen woofers, then measured them one-by-one with the PE Woofer Tester until I found three that had the right Thiele Small specs for my enclosure. One of the best candidates was a craaptastic MTX Blue Thunder woofer that I bought used off of Ebay for $40! Actually, Blue Thunder was hot stuff at the time, but that was almost 20 years ago.
To make a long story short, you CAN make really cheap subs if you can find a place to hide them. The use of an exotic $300 subwoofer driver is overkill sometimes.
I want to share my experience I was lucky enough to have on Saturday morning.
I have been following several threads on DIYaudio over the last few months and this one has really had my attention from the beginning.
I am your typical audiophile who is constantly buying and selling gear trying to improve the sound of the system. I have reached the point where I actually think things through before buying and selling something so I have a goal of what I am searching for.
My current system is Emerald Physics CS2 speakers combined with a highly modified Behringer DCX 2496 with the low frequencies driven by Odyssey Audio Stratos Monoblocks (SE boards & upgrades). I have settled on a DIY First Watt F3 amp for the high frequencies. These speakers do more things right than wrong and I have fallen for many of their excellent qualities.
I live in driving distance of Dr. Geddes and he was kind enough to allow me the opportunity to hear his Summa speakers and to ask questions about the kit that he has put together.
First things first. Dr. Geddes was really friendly to have me over without knowing me and to answer my questions. He was also kind enough to let me play several cds that I am very familiar with so I could have a better grasp of the sound I was hearing.
The sound of the Summa speakers was extremely pure. At first I thought I was not hearing all the bass I should be. I found out very soon this was not the case. Dr. Geddes believes in using multiple subs to get the bass right in a room. I have never heard of this approach before and as the morning went on I realized how realistic it sounded. The Summas have a realistic sound that I have not heard in any speaker system before. We listened to different types of music on the system and I was very impressed with what I heard.
Dr. Geddes also played a few concert dvds and the DTS soundtrack to them. This is where the sound levels went up. I could not believe how open the sound was. We were listening at near concert levels and it was as close to being at a concert as I have ever heard. The dynamics were astounding and there was no compression. I also experienced zero listener fatigue which is absolutely crucial for me.
Contrasting the sound I heard in his room to what I have become used to with my system led me to several observations. I believe the CS2 is a very competent design and an excellent sounding speaker system especially when you factor in cost. I don't think that I will ever be able to attain the midrange I am looking for with my current speakers. I think that using an extremely well designed two way speaker with very high quality drivers paired with multiple subwoofers placed properly will be the way to the sound I am searching for. The bass and dynamics in his room were the most realistic I have heard. It didn't sound like a stereo system it sounded live. I was completely stunned to find out the modest electronics that were used in this system. I am not saying they weren't good, they obviously are based on the sound I heard. I just expected the electronics to cost thousands more to achieve the sound quality that I heard.
I also had a chance to see the prototype of the kit that is being offered. To say that I am interested and intrigued would be an understatement.
I am very thankful that I had the opportunity to hear the Summa and that I have a better understanding of the design and how excellent it actually sounds.
I have extremely high hopes for the kit that is being offered. I will continue to follow this thread and may very well take on the project.
-Nick
I have been following several threads on DIYaudio over the last few months and this one has really had my attention from the beginning.
I am your typical audiophile who is constantly buying and selling gear trying to improve the sound of the system. I have reached the point where I actually think things through before buying and selling something so I have a goal of what I am searching for.
My current system is Emerald Physics CS2 speakers combined with a highly modified Behringer DCX 2496 with the low frequencies driven by Odyssey Audio Stratos Monoblocks (SE boards & upgrades). I have settled on a DIY First Watt F3 amp for the high frequencies. These speakers do more things right than wrong and I have fallen for many of their excellent qualities.
I live in driving distance of Dr. Geddes and he was kind enough to allow me the opportunity to hear his Summa speakers and to ask questions about the kit that he has put together.
First things first. Dr. Geddes was really friendly to have me over without knowing me and to answer my questions. He was also kind enough to let me play several cds that I am very familiar with so I could have a better grasp of the sound I was hearing.
The sound of the Summa speakers was extremely pure. At first I thought I was not hearing all the bass I should be. I found out very soon this was not the case. Dr. Geddes believes in using multiple subs to get the bass right in a room. I have never heard of this approach before and as the morning went on I realized how realistic it sounded. The Summas have a realistic sound that I have not heard in any speaker system before. We listened to different types of music on the system and I was very impressed with what I heard.
Dr. Geddes also played a few concert dvds and the DTS soundtrack to them. This is where the sound levels went up. I could not believe how open the sound was. We were listening at near concert levels and it was as close to being at a concert as I have ever heard. The dynamics were astounding and there was no compression. I also experienced zero listener fatigue which is absolutely crucial for me.
Contrasting the sound I heard in his room to what I have become used to with my system led me to several observations. I believe the CS2 is a very competent design and an excellent sounding speaker system especially when you factor in cost. I don't think that I will ever be able to attain the midrange I am looking for with my current speakers. I think that using an extremely well designed two way speaker with very high quality drivers paired with multiple subwoofers placed properly will be the way to the sound I am searching for. The bass and dynamics in his room were the most realistic I have heard. It didn't sound like a stereo system it sounded live. I was completely stunned to find out the modest electronics that were used in this system. I am not saying they weren't good, they obviously are based on the sound I heard. I just expected the electronics to cost thousands more to achieve the sound quality that I heard.
I also had a chance to see the prototype of the kit that is being offered. To say that I am interested and intrigued would be an understatement.
I am very thankful that I had the opportunity to hear the Summa and that I have a better understanding of the design and how excellent it actually sounds.
I have extremely high hopes for the kit that is being offered. I will continue to follow this thread and may very well take on the project.
-Nick
nicksgem10s said:
Thank you for giving us your impression of the Summa speakers and its comparison with CS2.
Your comments above about the midrange of CS2, do you mean that as the system as it stands you cannot improve on the midrange. If that is so then a 3 way speakers would solve the problem, by having a dedicated midrange.
I personally believe a 2-way speaker, with careful selection of drivers will sound very good even in the mid-range. Having said this a good sounding 2-way speakers may come from AudioKinesis eventhough I have not heard them myself..
Nick,
Thanks for the very pertinent review.
I am particularly intrigued that the Emerald Physics CS2 was your point of reference.
I have two questions:
1. which model Summa were you listening to? The one with the 15" driver?
2. Did you get a chance to hear the ESP 10 version that is being discussed here?
Earl - could you characterize the difference between the ESP 10 and the Summa 15 in terms of midrange and lower midrange tonality, please?
I guess it would go without saying that the 15 would go substantially louder with ease, but I imagine that a successful pairing of the ESP 10 with subwoofers would be considerably more challenging than would be the case with the 15 because of the higher crossover frequency.
Thanks for the very pertinent review.
I am particularly intrigued that the Emerald Physics CS2 was your point of reference.
I have two questions:
1. which model Summa were you listening to? The one with the 15" driver?
2. Did you get a chance to hear the ESP 10 version that is being discussed here?
Earl - could you characterize the difference between the ESP 10 and the Summa 15 in terms of midrange and lower midrange tonality, please?
I guess it would go without saying that the 15 would go substantially louder with ease, but I imagine that a successful pairing of the ESP 10 with subwoofers would be considerably more challenging than would be the case with the 15 because of the higher crossover frequency.
Russell Dawkins said:
What Nick heard were the Summa 15s. There is only one Summa 10 at the moment and changing my listening room - swapping out speakers - is not trivial.
I'm not going to get into the subjective aspects of the design with a list of flowery words that have little meaning. My point is and always has been that I can design to measurements and knowing what measurements matter I can create exceptional products that sound great and measure great. I let the data speaker for itself.
The differences between the 10 and 15 are well shown on the web site www.ai-audio.com. The 15 holds the waveguide pattern control much better, and it goes lower in frequency. The 15 actually has the smoother lower midrange. The 15 is the better speaker, there is no doubt of that, but its size and its cost make it prohibitive. The 10 is a very cost effective alternative.
I don't see much difference in the use of subs for the two - the 10 and 15 - You just move the LP filters on the subs a little higher thats all. Both speakers still go well into the modal range of any home listening room. In a very large room the matching is more difficult, but not in a smaller room.
)
nicksgem10s said:
Those Emerald Physics speakers are nothing to sneeze at. I heard them at CES in 2007, and they are amazing. In fact I wrote a fawning review of one of their models here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=104441
Having said that, I finally broked down and made arrangements to buy the Summas. Even though it's a bit scary to purchase a kilobuck speaker during a recession, I figure I have to have a pair of these while they're still for sale. Back in 2004 I flew 1200 miles to listen to them, and talk shop with Dr Geddes.
As with everyone else who has written here, I'm very interested in this product.
I think that a decision needs to be made regarding the main customers, continental US or worldwide.
An operation with a worldwide bias would necessitate minimal weight of the "kit" due to the postage costs with would soon accumulate.
Having said that I always seem to struggle with obtaining the correct parts for projects so a complete kit minus the woodwork would probably interest me the most.
Nick.
I think that a decision needs to be made regarding the main customers, continental US or worldwide.
An operation with a worldwide bias would necessitate minimal weight of the "kit" due to the postage costs with would soon accumulate.
Having said that I always seem to struggle with obtaining the correct parts for projects so a complete kit minus the woodwork would probably interest me the most.
Nick.
Grumpy_Git said:
Nick Thanks for the note.
Unfortunately that decision is made by default. I live in the US and I expect to sell the vast majority of the kits here. It would make little sense to target a foreign market that just does not appear to be there.
I think that the best option for overseas is to buy the baffle and waveguide and source the rest of the parts locally. I can place orders for the B&C drivers to be delivered anywhere in the world, but the crossover parts are more difficult. The rest of the parts are pretty easy to get anywhere.
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