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Old 7th January 2010, 05:21 PM   #1631
PB2 is offline PB2  United States
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
So does the paper you based your opinion on exist? Would like to read both papers.
For now, I'll say that is it, you can see from the abstract that it DOES support my opinion. Certainly, not 12 Hz for every system but for some ultimate systems with an emphasis on bass.

Yes, the paper exists, I've not looked at it in 10 to 15 years as I already said. I will try to search my library when I have some free time; I'm fully over-loaded with a new work project at the moment.

There are over 400 hits if you search on subwoofer at the AES site:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/

Pete Basel

Last edited by PB2; 7th January 2010 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 7th January 2010, 05:36 PM   #1632
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by makingmoney View Post
Can the Abbeys be used successfully about one foot from the back wall, toed in, next to a 42" plasma for HT. Or too many early reflections?

I live in an apartment, not a lot of space.

Thanks
Sure, its not that any situation is going to be a disaster, its just that some are better than others. For example, the screen on the TV will reflect and thats a VER, but no matter what speakers you use this will happen. More so with non-directional ones. My speakers are away from the wall about two feet, one foot is OK, two is better. What I would do is hang as heavy a drape - even double - as possible behind the speakers and TV. I find wall refections from behind the speakers quite objectionable. Maybe this is why I don't like dipoles. I mean if you have twelve feet behind the speakers then it doesn't matter, but who has that?
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Old 7th January 2010, 06:28 PM   #1633
markus76 is offline markus76  Germany
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Originally Posted by PB2 View Post
FYes, the paper exists, I've not looked at it in 10 to 15 years as I already said. I will try to search my library when I have some free time; I'm fully over-loaded with a new work project at the moment.
Ok, I'll get the first paper. Would appreciate if you could find the other one.

I don't deny that there's low frequency content below 20 Hz but from all I know I have to doubt that it's there by purpose.

The lowest note of a pipe organ is 16 Hz. If you ever heard "Also sprach Zarathustra" live then you know that 16 Hz is not a note, it has no pitch. The perception is more like the earth is shacking (that was probably the intention). So, what's the use of deeper bass? More shacking? Look at the equal loudness curves. To get the same loudness of a 1 kHz sound at 16 Hz you'll need to raise the level a whopping 40 dB. That's a power increase of factor 10000.
If you need all that shacking, it's more reasonable to get one of those seat shakers. Olive provides some interesting insights at Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Effect of Whole-body Vibrations on Preferred Bass Equalizations of Automotive Audio Systems

Those guys obsessing about low frequency reproduction remind me of dB drag racing. That's not about accurate sound reproduction - that's little boys with their little toys.

Best, Markus

Last edited by markus76; 7th January 2010 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 7th January 2010, 06:41 PM   #1634
markus76 is offline markus76  Germany
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Originally Posted by makingmoney View Post
Can the Abbeys be used successfully about one foot from the back wall, toed in, next to a 42" plasma for HT. Or too many early reflections?
I would even argue this is what these speakers are made for. I have the Nathans in a very similar 2.1 setup and have yet to find a better sounding home theater.

Best, Markus
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Old 7th January 2010, 06:53 PM   #1635
PB2 is offline PB2  United States
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Ok, I'll get the first paper. Would appreciate if you could find the other one.

I don't deny that there's low frequency content below 20 Hz but from all I know I have to doubt that it's there by purpose.

The lowest note of a pipe organ is 16 Hz. If you ever heard "Also sprach Zarathustra" live then you know that 16 Hz is not a note, it has no pitch. The perception is more like the earth is shacking (that was probably the intention). So, what's the use of deeper bass? More shacking? Look at the equal loudness curves. To get the same loudness of a 1 kHz sound at 16 Hz you'll need to raise the level a whopping 40 dB. That's a power increase of factor 10000.
If you need all that shacking, it's more reasonable to get one of those seat shakers. Olive provides some interesting insights at Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Effect of Whole-body Vibrations on Preferred Bass Equalizations of Automotive Audio Systems

Those guys obsessing about low frequency reproduction remind me of dB drag racing. That's not about accurate sound reproduction - that's little boys with their little toys.

Best, Markus
Are you going to buy this paper or do you have the CD? I have about 30 years of the AES Journal here but not the CD.

I'm aware of the Equal Level Loudness contour curves; studied them in the Audio Engineering course and project work that I did.
The relative level is not important, what is - is how much level is required to be felt and shake the room.

I actually find that it feels like the air is being sucked out of the room at times, LOL!
This is with two 14" cube subwoofers and 1000W driving them - nothing extreme.

It is all a matter of your goals, sure perhaps it is easier to do with bass shakers, but some don't want to modify their furniture.

Enough with the analogies to car sound dB races, not what I'm into.

Last edited by PB2; 7th January 2010 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 7th January 2010, 06:54 PM   #1636
randybes is offline randybes  United States
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I sat through a demo of the rotary sub and while it is interesting to feel notes that low, it is more a novelty as far as I am concerned. I am not sure Tom (Nousaine) feels the same way as he went to talk to the designer.

Last edited by randybes; 7th January 2010 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 7th January 2010, 07:00 PM   #1637
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by randybes View Post
I sat through a demo of the rotary sub and while it interesting to feel notes that low, it is more a novelty as far as I am concerned. I am not sure Tom (Nousaine) feels the same way as he want to talk to the designer.
Having heard Tom's system I can tell you that he is in the Bass Extrema camp. I found his system extremely unpleasant as a result. He, being used to extremes, finds mine lacking. Mine measures about 3 dB above flat (there he goes with that objective data stuff again) at 20 Hz, slight boost, nothing extreme. Tom's must be + 10 dB at this frequency. It was unlistenable, just like pop concerts in Asia.
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Old 7th January 2010, 08:25 PM   #1638
makingmoney is offline makingmoney  United States
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Markus wrote about the Nathans in his HT.
I finally looked at them and see they have the same driver as the Abbeys and Summas. And they are smaller which works better in my limited space.
Where do the Nathans xover at?.....1K, 1.5K? How are they on male voices, chesty or clean?
Do they go lower than 100hz?
Are there any reviews of the Nathans?
I don't expect perfection at Nathans price, just enjoyable non-boxy HT and music.

Could the Nathans be built with the Xover and board separate from the cabinet, so wires for from HF and LF come out the back? Less vibrations and blurriness for the Xover. Having done this on over 5 speakers it has worked well every time. Not night and day, just cleaner sound for almost no money.

Since space is a constraint for me could 2 or 3 subwoofers be next to each other (touching?) under the TV? Kind of a subwoofer speakerbar about a 1 or 2 feet from the back wall. Or would that turn them into a boom box?

Thanks
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Old 7th January 2010, 08:48 PM   #1639
pooge is offline pooge  United States
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
Having heard Tom's system I can tell you that he is in the Bass Extrema camp. I found his system extremely unpleasant as a result. He, being used to extremes, finds mine lacking. Mine measures about 3 dB above flat (there he goes with that objective data stuff again) at 20 Hz, slight boost, nothing extreme. Tom's must be + 10 dB at this frequency. It was unlistenable, just like pop concerts in Asia.
Tom Nousaine is also on written record as poo-pooing the audibility of absolute polarity.
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Old 7th January 2010, 09:05 PM   #1640
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Tom Nousaine is also on written record as poo-pooing the audibility of absolute polarity.
Well I don't disagree with Tom on everything!
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