Hey Dmason,, the Calrad's suck bigtime.....*s*....No what I mean man.. Richard....Dave explains it real good I think on why it works on integration. You can try higher up ,, but.......you might want to just put a very small, very high xo. Used .22uf & no resistors when no coil is on B200. As far as the Bash plates I run 1 -300S per side, so a pair of em..The driver you are looking at I magine will outperform my bass driver easy..A TVC is just a Transformer volume controle.. any pre would do with mulitple outs would work, but you can not tap off the amp & use high level in on plate amps, if you high pass the B200 amp.. so you must tap signal off pre or DAC or somewhere other than the B200 amp. If you run B200 alone which I like alot.. it is very good to run off the amp speaker outs & into high level in on the plates.wroks excellent...again I think the only reason this xo works is how Dave expains it,.
Hi Dave and JandG ~
Thank you both for your interesting explanations of how a crossover
that sets its frequency values for each driver so far away from each other
could work.
Of course it goes against a great deal of current thinking where the speaker
designer tries to maintain a very steep slop between drivers so that the overlap
has a somewhat seamless carry-over of the frequency.
But there are also quite a few examples of multiple driver speakers that allow
one or more of the drivers to roll-off naturally so there is no use of a
crossover at all.
I find the upper frequency of the B200's to be very resolving on almost every
kind of music I play on it... however I am certain that what you are hearing,
JandG, is several magnitudes more refined, more detailed and more transparent.
And I can readily see how that can be addictive. Very exciting to think about.
Yes... I see what you mean about needing to run the RCA cables from the
pre-amp, perhaps with a splitter, for each Bash amp because of the
High Pass off the amp driving the B200 and Aurum Cantus tweeter.
I wonder what I can actually expect in the way of bass performance from the
Dayton 15" high excursion driver... I realize that back wave cancellation
issues are impossible to ignore and present a serious loss of bass presence...
here is certainly where EQ can be somewhat effective... whatever loss of
efficiency that would be a result of dialing in plus db's in the area most affected
by cancellation... from the high 30's to perhaps 180db's... would be offset by
the Bash's robust power reserves.
I am still in the dark as to what a PLLXO means, JandG (?)
("You have to run PLLXO to run ribbon with single 2uf cap @ 10K...")
Thanks again Dave and JandG for your help and insights.
Warm Regards ~ Richard
Thank you both for your interesting explanations of how a crossover
that sets its frequency values for each driver so far away from each other
could work.
Of course it goes against a great deal of current thinking where the speaker
designer tries to maintain a very steep slop between drivers so that the overlap
has a somewhat seamless carry-over of the frequency.
But there are also quite a few examples of multiple driver speakers that allow
one or more of the drivers to roll-off naturally so there is no use of a
crossover at all.
I find the upper frequency of the B200's to be very resolving on almost every
kind of music I play on it... however I am certain that what you are hearing,
JandG, is several magnitudes more refined, more detailed and more transparent.
And I can readily see how that can be addictive. Very exciting to think about.
Yes... I see what you mean about needing to run the RCA cables from the
pre-amp, perhaps with a splitter, for each Bash amp because of the
High Pass off the amp driving the B200 and Aurum Cantus tweeter.
I wonder what I can actually expect in the way of bass performance from the
Dayton 15" high excursion driver... I realize that back wave cancellation
issues are impossible to ignore and present a serious loss of bass presence...
here is certainly where EQ can be somewhat effective... whatever loss of
efficiency that would be a result of dialing in plus db's in the area most affected
by cancellation... from the high 30's to perhaps 180db's... would be offset by
the Bash's robust power reserves.
I am still in the dark as to what a PLLXO means, JandG (?)
("You have to run PLLXO to run ribbon with single 2uf cap @ 10K...")
Thanks again Dave and JandG for your help and insights.
Warm Regards ~ Richard
- RichardW - said:
PLLXO ... Passive Line Level Crossover
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html
J's statement is a bit confusing to top things off... he is saying that without the PLLXO on the mid-tweeter amp (as well as using the "official" technique detailed at the link above, one can just shrink the size of a coupling cap), the 2 uF passive XO on the tweeter does not work.
There could be a number of reasons. 1/ even at 10k a 1st order XO on a ribbon is streeful. Here the extra corner at 200 Hz would be a relief. 2/ relieving the B200 of bass energy improces its performance so it can keep up with the ribbon, 3/ the same also benefits the OPTs.
dave
as usual - Pit
Hi Dave ~
Having no experience with Ribbon tweeters but being extremely interested in their
potential for rendering upper frequencies with extraordinary transparency
I find your above reference a suitable warning to the uninitiated... like me.
I wonder if you go into your insight with a bit more personal experience?
I assume you are talking about crossing over below the suggested range of the
manufacture... or are you suggesting that hard hitting frequencies in the lower
frequency range... below 7khz for example... can deconstruct the delicate
accordion foil of the ribbon?
I would deeply appreciate it if you could go into this important observation
more deeply.
Last time we chatted Dave... was about using your excellent service for putting
your beautifully designed phase plugs into my B200's... I am still interested in
having you do that for me... if only I could give up my B200's for the time it
would take to have you do that for me... right now I can't live without them!
Warm Regards ~ Richard
Having no experience with Ribbon tweeters but being extremely interested in their
potential for rendering upper frequencies with extraordinary transparency
I find your above reference a suitable warning to the uninitiated... like me.
I wonder if you go into your insight with a bit more personal experience?
I assume you are talking about crossing over below the suggested range of the
manufacture... or are you suggesting that hard hitting frequencies in the lower
frequency range... below 7khz for example... can deconstruct the delicate
accordion foil of the ribbon?
I would deeply appreciate it if you could go into this important observation
more deeply.
Last time we chatted Dave... was about using your excellent service for putting
your beautifully designed phase plugs into my B200's... I am still interested in
having you do that for me... if only I could give up my B200's for the time it
would take to have you do that for me... right now I can't live without them!
Warm Regards ~ Richard
If you look at the recommended XO point & slope for most ribbons you note that they are typically 2.5-3.5 kHz but with minimum 4th order/6th order preferred.
Way to steep for us FR guys.
1st order at 10k gives the same attenuation as a 4th order at 3.5 kHz at about 1.5 kHz. Below that it is getting more energy. The extra knee at 200 Hz (+ a 3rd knee at the frequency the OPT rolls off -- ie if you use a SS amp things will be worse), makes the difference between life & death. Fortunately replacement ribbons are fairly cheap & easy to install.
As to the B200s, you can always take the knife to them yourself :^)
dave
Way to steep for us FR guys.
1st order at 10k gives the same attenuation as a 4th order at 3.5 kHz at about 1.5 kHz. Below that it is getting more energy. The extra knee at 200 Hz (+ a 3rd knee at the frequency the OPT rolls off -- ie if you use a SS amp things will be worse), makes the difference between life & death. Fortunately replacement ribbons are fairly cheap & easy to install.
As to the B200s, you can always take the knife to them yourself :^)
dave
1st order at 10k gives the same attenuation as a 4th order at 3.5 kHz at about 1.5 kHz. Below that it is getting more energy. The extra knee at 200 Hz (+ a 3rd knee at the frequency the OPT rolls off -- ie if you use a SS amp things will be worse), makes the difference between life & death. Fortunately replacement ribbons are fairly cheap & easy to install.
Dave,..can you explain this once more, I am kinda slow.....*s*
Dave,..can you explain this once more, I am kinda slow.....*s*
Good graph Dave, makes it easy to see what you were trying to say.
If the energy below 2KHz is a concern you could try a 2nd line filter at about 2.5Kz/6dB/oct. The added phase shift at such a low level shouldn't be a problem. Certainly much less than that of a 4th order.
JandG, your OBs look like they have authority. Well done.
Geoff.
If the energy below 2KHz is a concern you could try a 2nd line filter at about 2.5Kz/6dB/oct. The added phase shift at such a low level shouldn't be a problem. Certainly much less than that of a 4th order.
JandG, your OBs look like they have authority. Well done.
Geoff.
uzziah said:i don't know anything about it, but doesn't adding a tweeter and maybe a sub as well pretty much destroy the whole point of fullrange? suddenly your fullrange driver is a midrange ....
I support this idea.
I'm trying to decide if my first project will be studio monitor speakers or a fullrange. The question I'd like to ask the fullrange experts is:
"Is there a fullrange driver and cabinet design which you think the highs are good enough that one will not be tempted to add a tweeter" ?
Thanks in advance !!
Hi Audio Hobbyist ~
There are drivers out there that should fulfill that requirement very nicely.
I think that JandG is having a love affair with the highly resolving and
uncanny transparency that only a well designed ribbon tweeter can deliver
in that way.
So it not necessarily a decision based, philosophical speaking, on the sonic purity
and innate coherence of a single driver on the one hand... and the seemingly
cobbled affair of an "impure" multi-driver arrangement on the other.
JandG has something that "does it" for him... he is hearing magic... and he was
willing to work those meddling circuits until they produced an acceptable level of
coherency in order to keep that magic alive.
Outside of purely sonic considerations, which admittedly are terribly important,
the search for the perfect single driver has something to do with our sense
of wanting to impose an order of simplicity and resolution into our lives.
And that is something we cannot ignore. Audio has become complicated by the
sheer plethora of choices that were not available even 30 years ago.
Dazzling in the extreme, it drives us deeper and deeper into the search-and-seizure
mode of thinking.
Once ones ears become adapted to the coherency and sheer magic of a single
driver speaker... especially in an Open Baffle configuration... it is quite easy to
hear what the effects additions of other drivers creates... especially if they
are engineered with different materials and operational methods.
Still... that can constitute a delightful exploration for anyone who has given
themselves an aural bath of the charms of a single driver speaker for any
length of time.
Warm Regards ~ Richard
There are drivers out there that should fulfill that requirement very nicely.
I think that JandG is having a love affair with the highly resolving and
uncanny transparency that only a well designed ribbon tweeter can deliver
in that way.
So it not necessarily a decision based, philosophical speaking, on the sonic purity
and innate coherence of a single driver on the one hand... and the seemingly
cobbled affair of an "impure" multi-driver arrangement on the other.
JandG has something that "does it" for him... he is hearing magic... and he was
willing to work those meddling circuits until they produced an acceptable level of
coherency in order to keep that magic alive.
Outside of purely sonic considerations, which admittedly are terribly important,
the search for the perfect single driver has something to do with our sense
of wanting to impose an order of simplicity and resolution into our lives.
And that is something we cannot ignore. Audio has become complicated by the
sheer plethora of choices that were not available even 30 years ago.
Dazzling in the extreme, it drives us deeper and deeper into the search-and-seizure
mode of thinking.
Once ones ears become adapted to the coherency and sheer magic of a single
driver speaker... especially in an Open Baffle configuration... it is quite easy to
hear what the effects additions of other drivers creates... especially if they
are engineered with different materials and operational methods.
Still... that can constitute a delightful exploration for anyone who has given
themselves an aural bath of the charms of a single driver speaker for any
length of time.
Warm Regards ~ Richard
Dave, you're right. I goofed, thinking J's system was tri-amped.
I will put the thinking cap on. It's all well and good to be able to replace the ribbons, but I for one could get very cranky if one popped at 10 in the evening!
The ribbons will sound even better with less LF energy any how.
Geoff.
I will put the thinking cap on. It's all well and good to be able to replace the ribbons, but I for one could get very cranky if one popped at 10 in the evening!
The ribbons will sound even better with less LF energy any how.
Geoff.
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