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Visaton B200, Silver Iris or Hammer S12?
Visaton B200, Silver Iris or Hammer S12?
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Old 22nd September 2006, 05:58 PM   #11
reins is offline reins  Germany
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Quote:
Originally posted by preiter

The B200 has no crossover. Even the best crossover is going to color the sound somewhat.
Even the best Fullrange too

Stephan
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Old 22nd September 2006, 06:11 PM   #12
chrisb is offline chrisb
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Jolojl:

I was trying to be polite about the Hammers, but if I was to let my guard down, I'd have to say that I more listening experience with them than Planet10 upon which to base my opinion; too "cinemascope" in scale and midrange coloration for my taste.

I built a pair of the recommended Hammer enclosures for a buddy a few years ago now, and shared some of his "enjoyment" (but not expense) in attempting to tailor them to his room and musical expectations. There was also at least one pair in demo at the VSAC2003 show in Silverdale. Same results for me, particularly with 300B amps - the lean yet articulate bass of a 45 triode might be more well suited here.

FWIW, I find it interesting that designers of both the SI15 and the Super12 make reference to the ESL57 as an inspiration.

During the past 30ys, I've personally owned a complete Quad system (FM3/33/303 ESL57), as well as Acoustat I's, and had opportunity to hear a fairly wide range of ESLs at trade shows, dealers showrooms and tweaked out DIYers'.

Whatever the shortcomings of fullrange dipole ESLs (no speaker is perfect), I have yet to hear any multiway dynamic driver based system, and most particularly 2-ways with crossover points in the 1800-3200 range, that come close to approaching the midrange transparency and overall coherency of well execute examples of the former.

The closest I've experienced has been a particular model of Rethm, with a single highly modified Lowther driver, in a BLH design.

Dave & I both listened to the SI15 on the same occassions; once with an fresh (not fully broken in) set of the newer crossovers, and at both sessions with the oversized baffles - so it's fair to say that final opinions are in reserve. That's definitely not the case for the Hammer
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Old 22nd September 2006, 06:17 PM   #13
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Visaton B200, Silver Iris or Hammer S12?
Quote:
Even the best crossover is going to color the sound somewhat
Crossovers are something that are to be avoided. If you want truly full-range sound they can't be avoided -- at least with today's technology. Now, in some cases we can live without true full-range sound, and the benefits of no XO more than outweigh a bit missing at the top or bottom (or both). If an XO is going to be used, they need to be simple, and pushed out of the critical midrange. And at the bottom anyway, they should be active.

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Old 22nd September 2006, 11:56 PM   #14
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default Dave, what about Hemp Acoustics?

just wondering, have you played with any of these. Or anybody?
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Old 23rd September 2006, 04:40 AM   #15
johninCR is offline johninCR  United States
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I have both the B200 and SI coax, and they are an apples and oranges comparison. First, the B200 has an uptiltled response, so with no XO type components in the pathway, it sounds really good only with a small segment of music. You mention jazz and blues, so the forward presentation of the mids can make that type of music magical, but forget the full orchestra and classic rock because they will be fatiguing and lacking extension on both ends. Maybe Dave's phase plugs cures much of the hot top end of the B200's, but they still roll off early on both ends.

I have the SI's with the original XO, and while it's unfair to compare the mids of a 15 crossed to a compression tweet right in the critical range to a good fullrange driver, they are by far the easiest to listen to speaker I've owned. I listen to a wide variety of music and have mine set up as a 2-in-1 speaker. I have FE108EZ's on small OB's mounted right above the SI coax with switches. For dynamic or loud listening, I use the SI. For intimate music where vocals are where the magic is. I flip the switches, and run the 108's full range with the SI coax woofer as a bass augmenter using only a coil on the woofer, simple and very sweet.

This gives much of the best of 2 worlds. The B200 can't match the 108 in midrange detail, and it can't match the SI coax on music requiring dynamics. You can't, however, ignore pure single point source sound, where the B200 bests my 108/SI combo, along with power handling.

Very soon I'll be testing an active solution which includes time and phase correction, so I'll be testing all manner of combinations. B200's with super tweeter and bass augmenter help, as well as the SI in a time & phase perfect alignment, among other things. I have a sneaking suspicion that another alignment will be the OB winner, which will include a different and lower Q wide ranger with a super tweeter on top plus bass augmentation. This leaves the full critical range free of XO, has the extreme midrange detail of low Q fullrangers, along with bass in spades and full extension on top, and perfect phase and time alignment (essentially a full ranger used as a very wide range mid in an OB alignment) it should have great results.
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Old 23rd September 2006, 03:23 PM   #16
Jolojl is offline Jolojl  Sweden
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Hi!

ScottG -- Yes, the Omegas seem easy to clone but still takes a bit of space (I also had the idea of making a clone of the RWA Sig.30, but gave up when the cost still went up above 500 USD...).

planet10 and chrisb -- I've given up the Hammers. Maybe another time. Still, sorry to hear you burned the boxes, planet10: I could have bought them. I yet have to listen to ESLs, I'm sure I'll get the midrange magic everybody speaks of.

johninCR -- This is a very, very informative answer. I'll take the information with me. So even though there's magic with the Visaton B200 it seems as most single drivers in open baffle have some serious drawbacks (that's why there are horns and boxes I suppose, as well as drivers covering different frequencies and cross-overs...). Your project seems very interesting, hopefully we will hear more about it (and see pics?) when finalised?

Still curious about the new Hemp open baffle driver to come...

Thanks all!
Johan
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Old 23rd September 2006, 03:33 PM   #17
johninCR is offline johninCR  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jolojl

Still curious about the new Hemp open baffle driver to come...
Yes, there are a few new drivers in the works specifically designed for OB use. I'm anxious to hear an XBL2 10" coax I've heard rumours about.
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Old 23rd September 2006, 06:32 PM   #18
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Visaton B200, Silver Iris or Hammer S12?
Quote:
Originally posted by Jolojl
planet10 and chrisb -- I've given up the Hammers. Maybe another time. Still, sorry to hear you burned the boxes, planet10: I could have bought them.
You wouldn't even want to contemplate the cost of shipping from the left coast of Canada to Finland... might be cheaper to fly Chris over and have him build a fresh set there.

dave
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Old 25th September 2006, 10:33 AM   #19
Jolojl is offline Jolojl  Sweden
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Hey guys!

Thank you all for your input. Silver Iris ordered, think this will be a good starter. Also, Darrel is very helpful and very nice to have contact with.

Will try Visaton or other single driver later on, planet10 and chrisB .

Please let us know johninCR about your projects


Cheers!
Jolojl
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Old 25th September 2006, 06:21 PM   #20
mcgsxr is offline mcgsxr  Canada
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I think that everything that has been said about the b200 is true - to a point.

In my experience, let's qualify that right out of the gate, the b200 needs a certain type of amp, to be truly enjoyable, run full range.

I have run a broad number of amps, and found only 3 that I really like.

JVC EX-A1 - yes, it is an "executive" unit, so burn me at the stake - after you listen...

1956 Magnavox EL84 console pull - the value leader, and really surprisingly good with this driver.

MarkC (look him up on AudioCircle) and his monoblocks - hybrid tube/fet design, 300wpc. Phenomenal synergy...

The old Maggie, is a stunner - the bass fills out, the mids are preserved, and the treble is good. There could be more smoothness, but I am not one to look that horse in the mouth yet, and will continue to run the b200's (Thanks again Planet10 Dave!) full range, on 36x48 baffles, folded with piano hinge.

Done.
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