I was at work today, and made a bit of a discovery.
I was playing around with a bunch of the minisystems that we sell, seeing which i liked the best and whatnot.
of the 15 or so systems we had there, the two I liked the best where simple 1 driver per speaker JVC microsystems. Sure, they werent as loud or bass heavy as the bigger speakers. But they did seem to draw me into the music so much more then any of the bigger flashier 2-3way systems. the bass, was nice and punchy, the mids bass and highs all just seemed to blend into eachother so seamlessly.. they jsut seemed more natural, and at the same time more emotional and engaging then the rest. is this the sound of most fullrangers ? or where these just superior systems ?
If this is the full range sound, Im very very tempted to take on a good FR system as my first project. Which im dieing to start building soon. just gotta make up my mind
. I was thinking the fr125s in a simple ported box, or zaphs silver flute 2-way.. hrmm
I was playing around with a bunch of the minisystems that we sell, seeing which i liked the best and whatnot.
of the 15 or so systems we had there, the two I liked the best where simple 1 driver per speaker JVC microsystems. Sure, they werent as loud or bass heavy as the bigger speakers. But they did seem to draw me into the music so much more then any of the bigger flashier 2-3way systems. the bass, was nice and punchy, the mids bass and highs all just seemed to blend into eachother so seamlessly.. they jsut seemed more natural, and at the same time more emotional and engaging then the rest. is this the sound of most fullrangers ? or where these just superior systems ?
If this is the full range sound, Im very very tempted to take on a good FR system as my first project. Which im dieing to start building soon. just gotta make up my mind
. I was thinking the fr125s in a simple ported box, or zaphs silver flute 2-way.. hrmmRobert, just go for it!!!
I`ve just discover the joy of fullrange myself. I have been listening to different speakers for 30 years, and none of them have given me the pleasure as the FR do. I did build myself a pair of speakers with Lowther DX3`s a month ago, and I`m pretty sure that I`ll never going back to the traditional ones again.
http://foto.aftenposten.no/show_album.php?aid=1095275
And, if you really want to enjoy the FR, go for tube amps too. I`ve replaced my transistors with a pair of 300B monoblocks. Wow What a difference!
After listening to FR for a month, I have been asking myself: where have you been those 30 years? I`m really sorry that I didn`t discover this earlier. Well, I`ll hopefully have many years to come, so!
The only drawback is the loss of bass. I am going to make myself a subwoofer with a 15" Beyma (98db) and with an active amp (Hypex 175W) to compliment the setup.
I`m pretty sure you`ll never regret if you do!!
Good luck with the choice you`ll make!
Lars
I`ve just discover the joy of fullrange myself. I have been listening to different speakers for 30 years, and none of them have given me the pleasure as the FR do. I did build myself a pair of speakers with Lowther DX3`s a month ago, and I`m pretty sure that I`ll never going back to the traditional ones again.
http://foto.aftenposten.no/show_album.php?aid=1095275
And, if you really want to enjoy the FR, go for tube amps too. I`ve replaced my transistors with a pair of 300B monoblocks. Wow What a difference!
After listening to FR for a month, I have been asking myself: where have you been those 30 years? I`m really sorry that I didn`t discover this earlier. Well, I`ll hopefully have many years to come, so!
The only drawback is the loss of bass. I am going to make myself a subwoofer with a 15" Beyma (98db) and with an active amp (Hypex 175W) to compliment the setup.
I`m pretty sure you`ll never regret if you do!!
Good luck with the choice you`ll make!
Lars
thanks guys, I think I may just have to give the FR a try, I was just so hesitant because I hear there as some pretty big draw backs to them, like beaming highs, and lack of bass.
But at the same time, most of my listening is perfectly on axis. And I guess I can always add A nice subwoofer to the mix huh. I like the sound of a good subwoofer and satellite, VS a big floor standind 3 way.
Thanks again guys, Any other sudgestions as a good way to step into the FR side, Would the FR125s be a bad choice ? I only have an old sansui amp to run these from for now, and for that matter, It will probably be my only amp for some time.
And finaly.. I like small enclosures, I dont mind floor standing towers and whatnot, But Im not a fan of WIDE enclosures, as I dont have much space to work with. Hrmm..
But at the same time, most of my listening is perfectly on axis. And I guess I can always add A nice subwoofer to the mix huh. I like the sound of a good subwoofer and satellite, VS a big floor standind 3 way.
Thanks again guys, Any other sudgestions as a good way to step into the FR side, Would the FR125s be a bad choice ? I only have an old sansui amp to run these from for now, and for that matter, It will probably be my only amp for some time.
And finaly.. I like small enclosures, I dont mind floor standing towers and whatnot, But Im not a fan of WIDE enclosures, as I dont have much space to work with. Hrmm..
I t seems to me that the speajers that you have been listening to are errrr.... crap. You are reacting to the 'better' sound of the JVC unit.. the single driver that it uses is only co-incidental/accidental to the sound.
There are LOTS of really damned good 2 and 3 way systems.
The Fos-dicks's are the Fave of DIY /basement builders.. a fair sound for a low price, plus the Joy(?) of making them...
AND telling everybody about it
Lowthers are 'better' but disproprtionately priced/valued for the noise emmitted...and as with all single drivers have a lot of irreperable baggage attached. It IS an aquired taste, usually one derived from the time and $$ getting the things up and running.
Given your 'equipment' and state of your experiences, a pair of Small PSB's might just amaze.
There are LOTS of really damned good 2 and 3 way systems.
The Fos-dicks's are the Fave of DIY /basement builders.. a fair sound for a low price, plus the Joy(?) of making them...
AND telling everybody about it
Lowthers are 'better' but disproprtionately priced/valued for the noise emmitted...and as with all single drivers have a lot of irreperable baggage attached. It IS an aquired taste, usually one derived from the time and $$ getting the things up and running.
Given your 'equipment' and state of your experiences, a pair of Small PSB's might just amaze.
Well, Dont get me wrong, Ive heard some pretty good systems before, PSB, Energy, B&W, etc etc, as im always at my local HT shop . And I own a pair of Cerwins (I know, not very hifi lol). I was just suprised how good that little 150$ full range system sounded compared to the 400$ minis.
I guess I like the simplicity attached to the FR. WHen I build my first speakers, which will hopefully be really soon, Id love to go for a sub satellite system with book shelves. And Ive just heard so many good things about the mids and highs of some full range drivers. I dunno what to do lol. FYI Ive got a pretty nice wood shop in my basement, table saws, bandsaws, jointers, routers, all the good stuff, all of which im pretty good with so I dont mind tackeling a tough cabinet or anything. Its crossover design that scares me. Another reason I though FR would be a good place to start.
I love this site BTW, so much good Info, ive learned alot, and so many helpfull people.
. And I own a pair of Cerwins (I know, not very hifi lol). I was just suprised how good that little 150$ full range system sounded compared to the 400$ minis. I guess I like the simplicity attached to the FR. WHen I build my first speakers, which will hopefully be really soon, Id love to go for a sub satellite system with book shelves. And Ive just heard so many good things about the mids and highs of some full range drivers. I dunno what to do lol. FYI Ive got a pretty nice wood shop in my basement, table saws, bandsaws, jointers, routers, all the good stuff, all of which im pretty good with
so I dont mind tackeling a tough cabinet or anything. Its crossover design that scares me. Another reason I though FR would be a good place to start.I love this site BTW, so much good Info, ive learned alot, and so many helpfull people.
Just one thing Robert.
As I understand, you are able to make some complex cabinets.
Go for two layers of 10mm plywood with fine sand between them. You can also use wood as the outer layer instead of plywood of course.
I`ll think that you will find this as a better construction than the usual MDF one.
There will be no resonance what so ever!
Good luck, whatever design you choose to make!
Don`t listen to the people who claim that FR is bad. They are listening to sound, not music!
Lars
As I understand, you are able to make some complex cabinets.
Go for two layers of 10mm plywood with fine sand between them. You can also use wood as the outer layer instead of plywood of course.
I`ll think that you will find this as a better construction than the usual MDF one.
There will be no resonance what so ever!
Good luck, whatever design you choose to make!
Don`t listen to the people who claim that FR is bad. They are listening to sound, not music!
Lars
Ok, OK, new question, If you only had 200$ canadian to spend, and had to buy your parts from CreativeSound or Solen. What would you build. Acually even better, You had to build these speakers for me. My big request is that handle my live dave matthews, rush, and other similair genres of music well at a moderate volume. Need to have punchy lows.
Now, What would you build me ?
I was thinking Fr125s In a mini-onken enclosure, Or in a sealed enclosure which could eventually be crossed to a nice subwoofer at a future date.
Im comming from a set of Cerwin Vegas, which are stupid loud, But overall I find them to be uncontroller, the highs are hissy, the mids sound congested, and the bass, while it BOOMS just doesnt have the tightness and punchyness I want. Its the old ls10's I think, the 3-way with the 10" woofers.
Now, What would you build me ?
I was thinking Fr125s In a mini-onken enclosure, Or in a sealed enclosure which could eventually be crossed to a nice subwoofer at a future date.
Im comming from a set of Cerwin Vegas, which are stupid loud, But overall I find them to be uncontroller, the highs are hissy, the mids sound congested, and the bass, while it BOOMS just doesnt have the tightness and punchyness I want. Its the old ls10's I think, the 3-way with the 10" woofers.
Hi All,
My impression has been that "very" few drivers are actually fullrange. They either need help on the top or the bottom of the frequency range. The FR is a very good driver, either sealed or ported in an appropriate cabinet, it can give you excellent sound.
To complete the setup, I would recommend a subwoofer (or two!).
Just to address your mention of the music used by fullrangers, I always use classical music, acoustic instruments and vocals to "voice" a speaker as these are real sounds that exist outside electronic circuitry and are the most familiar to the human ear. I wish that I had some master tapes to use for playback, instead I use the best recorded cd's, usually First Impression Music as their standards are probably the highest in the industry.
I've mentioned this before, but I use my Sennheiser 580's to do the A/B with the speaker. I drive the cans off of the Amplifier's "B" terminals using a voltage divider and the speaker off of the "A" terminals so I can switch back and forth for comparison. This simple method works for me and I've never felt that I needed to redo the tonal balance if I could get it close to the sound of the Sennheiser's.
Just to show you that I'm a regular guy and not some pervert, I'll mention right here that I currently own 8 pairs of speakers that are either 2 or 3 way.
The problem is that I keep going back to my "Hi-Tweek" Black Box Speakers (Radio Shack 40-1197), but then, I do have in excess of $27 USD wrapped up in them.
Hope that some of this is helpful.
Best Regards,
TerryO
My impression has been that "very" few drivers are actually fullrange. They either need help on the top or the bottom of the frequency range. The FR is a very good driver, either sealed or ported in an appropriate cabinet, it can give you excellent sound.
To complete the setup, I would recommend a subwoofer (or two!).
Just to address your mention of the music used by fullrangers, I always use classical music, acoustic instruments and vocals to "voice" a speaker as these are real sounds that exist outside electronic circuitry and are the most familiar to the human ear. I wish that I had some master tapes to use for playback, instead I use the best recorded cd's, usually First Impression Music as their standards are probably the highest in the industry.
I've mentioned this before, but I use my Sennheiser 580's to do the A/B with the speaker. I drive the cans off of the Amplifier's "B" terminals using a voltage divider and the speaker off of the "A" terminals so I can switch back and forth for comparison. This simple method works for me and I've never felt that I needed to redo the tonal balance if I could get it close to the sound of the Sennheiser's.
Just to show you that I'm a regular guy and not some pervert, I'll mention right here that I currently own 8 pairs of speakers that are either 2 or 3 way.
The problem is that I keep going back to my "Hi-Tweek" Black Box Speakers (Radio Shack 40-1197), but then, I do have in excess of $27 USD wrapped up in them.
Hope that some of this is helpful.
Best Regards,
TerryO
love FR loudspeakers?...yup you probably do
a couple of comments..
first: if you love all music then, AFAIC, FRs are the way . You can always add a sub.
second: many comment about beeming, etc. Depending on the driver, this may or may not be the case.
third: this site is a great resource, many designers "hang out " here (I'm not one for sure)
fourth: never underestimate what 8 watts (or as few as 1.2) can do.
Now if I was you, I'd search out a great old console with a tube amp and (ususally) full range drivers or consider "vintage" drivers, or a pair (or two) of Radioshack 40-1197 drivers or similar. The Fostex drivers are better and well supported in the DIY community. Search Planet10's site (moderator,). I'm not promoting his business at all, but he and his fellow Islander Chris make a huge number of DIY loudspeakers and have a good sized library plans available free.
a couple of comments..
first: if you love all music then, AFAIC, FRs are the way . You can always add a sub.
second: many comment about beeming, etc. Depending on the driver, this may or may not be the case.
third: this site is a great resource, many designers "hang out " here (I'm not one for sure)
fourth: never underestimate what 8 watts (or as few as 1.2) can do.
Now if I was you, I'd search out a great old console with a tube amp and (ususally) full range drivers or consider "vintage" drivers, or a pair (or two) of Radioshack 40-1197 drivers or similar. The Fostex drivers are better and well supported in the DIY community. Search Planet10's site (moderator,). I'm not promoting his business at all, but he and his fellow Islander Chris make a huge number of DIY loudspeakers and have a good sized library plans available free.
What I've learned over time has to do with
putting 2 lbs. in a one lb. bag.
To get the most out of full range, bigger is better.
This doesn't mean you have to play loud to
get something out of 4-5 in. full range drivers.
It more has to do with the music system having
room to breath in the sense that acoustic theory
says a certain length for the sound wave to
do its thing is needed.
So I asked the same sort of questions when I
started: how to put big sound in a small box?
I wound up somewhere in the middle-- not exactly
floor standers as a build but not the standard
bookshelf system from the Sansui 70's either.
Think outside the box for a bit and select a low
to mid-low price point like the Fostex 126/127e.
Bigger is Better so to get a small footprint you
can make some BIBs and put them in corners
of the room in a tall but slim design.
Here's a build that is getting a lot of attention:
http://www.zillaspeak.com/bib.asp
There's a long thread here on it, but the zilla site is better
laid out for a quick glance.
Also for that mid size project, check out the
Full range reference project here which shows the
range of construction based one driver:
the Fostex 127e. I say range rather than
how-to because the reference project consists
of a variety of designs for the same unit.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46934
Lastly, in the full range groups like this you'll find that the
posters have a wide range of taste in music content. My tests of
new builds lean toward things like the solo guitar work of
Martin Taylor, a jazz artist influenced by Django Reinhart.
putting 2 lbs. in a one lb. bag.
To get the most out of full range, bigger is better.
This doesn't mean you have to play loud to
get something out of 4-5 in. full range drivers.
It more has to do with the music system having
room to breath in the sense that acoustic theory
says a certain length for the sound wave to
do its thing is needed.
So I asked the same sort of questions when I
started: how to put big sound in a small box?
I wound up somewhere in the middle-- not exactly
floor standers as a build but not the standard
bookshelf system from the Sansui 70's either.
Think outside the box for a bit and select a low
to mid-low price point like the Fostex 126/127e.
Bigger is Better so to get a small footprint you
can make some BIBs and put them in corners
of the room in a tall but slim design.
Here's a build that is getting a lot of attention:
http://www.zillaspeak.com/bib.asp
There's a long thread here on it, but the zilla site is better
laid out for a quick glance.
Also for that mid size project, check out the
Full range reference project here which shows the
range of construction based one driver:
the Fostex 127e. I say range rather than
how-to because the reference project consists
of a variety of designs for the same unit.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46934
Lastly, in the full range groups like this you'll find that the
posters have a wide range of taste in music content. My tests of
new builds lean toward things like the solo guitar work of
Martin Taylor, a jazz artist influenced by Django Reinhart.
In my situation the difference betweem my full range system and other other 2/3 ways I have comes down to if I actually am wanting the intimate experience of listening to music or having music in the background.
I've come to look at it this way, the fullrange system is like a sports car, it transmits every variation in the raod, responds to all inputs, accelerates with lightening speed and is very acccurate, but it is not suited to a casual sunday drive. It is about involvement. The full rangers are the same, they are about musical performance, efficiency, you have to be in the sweet seat, with ears open and the mind tuned in. The result is an experience very much like a live performance, and with my eyes closed it is easy to mentally transport to the performance area.
The 2/3 ways are more like a big family car, comfortable, not demanding, and bland. As speakers they are easy to listen too and sound OK from any spot around the house, very tolerant of poor recording material. They are in no way about recreating a performance, even in the sweet spot the sound stage is no where near accurate enough for that, small details simply don't get reproduced and the dynamic range is somewhat choked.
One thing that I think needs mentioning though is that either system can be ruined by building boxes that actually colour the sound, which I feel is what most commercial speakers do, so they end up sounding like....boxes. In my experience nothing succeeds like excess when it comes to box weight and solidity! No doubt though some builders have found ways around this.
So I use them all, it just depends whether I want a sunday drive or blat on a mountain pass!
I've come to look at it this way, the fullrange system is like a sports car, it transmits every variation in the raod, responds to all inputs, accelerates with lightening speed and is very acccurate, but it is not suited to a casual sunday drive. It is about involvement. The full rangers are the same, they are about musical performance, efficiency, you have to be in the sweet seat, with ears open and the mind tuned in. The result is an experience very much like a live performance, and with my eyes closed it is easy to mentally transport to the performance area.
The 2/3 ways are more like a big family car, comfortable, not demanding, and bland. As speakers they are easy to listen too and sound OK from any spot around the house, very tolerant of poor recording material. They are in no way about recreating a performance, even in the sweet spot the sound stage is no where near accurate enough for that, small details simply don't get reproduced and the dynamic range is somewhat choked.
One thing that I think needs mentioning though is that either system can be ruined by building boxes that actually colour the sound, which I feel is what most commercial speakers do, so they end up sounding like....boxes. In my experience nothing succeeds like excess when it comes to box weight and solidity! No doubt though some builders have found ways around this.
So I use them all, it just depends whether I want a sunday drive or blat on a mountain pass!
My two cents on full-rangers:
Mine are CSS FR125S in a 9 litre bass reflex cabinet tuned to around 50 Hz. Additionally, I've used two notch filters to linearize the frequency response (1.5 KHz & 6.5 KHz).
Before, I had them in the recommended 7 litre cabinet without filters. The CSS FR125S sounds very good without filters at low volumes. With filters, they sound better at high volumes but seem to have lost a bit of their amazing detail. Still, they sound far more coherent than my two-way speakers and yes, the low end is simply amazing (don't go for a sealed configuration unless you want to use a subwoofer). What surprises me is that with sufficient damping they can play loud without screwing up the bass!
Beaming is an issue: you need to aim the speakers at your listening position otherwise there's not enough high end.
For DIY, I'd say it's more interesting to build a 1-way system than a 2 or 3-way system because there are enough cheap and good multiway speakers on the market anyway.
To make it short: Build a 1-way!
Mine are CSS FR125S in a 9 litre bass reflex cabinet tuned to around 50 Hz. Additionally, I've used two notch filters to linearize the frequency response (1.5 KHz & 6.5 KHz).
Before, I had them in the recommended 7 litre cabinet without filters. The CSS FR125S sounds very good without filters at low volumes. With filters, they sound better at high volumes but seem to have lost a bit of their amazing detail. Still, they sound far more coherent than my two-way speakers and yes, the low end is simply amazing (don't go for a sealed configuration unless you want to use a subwoofer). What surprises me is that with sufficient damping they can play loud without screwing up the bass!
Beaming is an issue: you need to aim the speakers at your listening position otherwise there's not enough high end.
For DIY, I'd say it's more interesting to build a 1-way system than a 2 or 3-way system because there are enough cheap and good multiway speakers on the market anyway.
To make it short: Build a 1-way!
Attachments
Hi everybody I am maxlorenz, "the mono-thematic"
I also became a believer in FR when I built a reduced replica (1:4) for my main speaker project: Tannoy Autograph enclosure. Big monster, corner mounted. I finished the first one. I'll post pics soon.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=74241&highlight=
I really like this enclosure. It is difficult to build and demads lots of energy, but the sound... I'm still adapting to the scale of it, both in terms of size and dinamics.(listening monoaural)
Why I comment that? Because as soon as I recover from the building of the full sized Autographs I'll make a 2:3 (or 8:15) replica of them to put a Fostex 206E or Audio Nirvana super8. They will be big (+/- 95*45cm) but corner mounting will make them use less space than conventional speakers. For around US$200 in transducers and US$150 in plywood I expect to end with a pair of jewells.
Why this enclosure? Because it compliments well, on paper, those FR that I mentioned before. Front horn reinforces midrange and rear horn does it with the bass. Over those freqs, +6db gain, it is said. Just to tame the HF response.
Midrange should be very open and warm and midbass should be strong and ample.
I know some will believe I'm crazy (I do) or will reject this project as too difficult but I bet I'm on the right track. (for listening to music)
Best of lucks with your own project
Regards
M.
I am maxlorenz, "the mono-thematic"I also became a believer in FR when I built a reduced replica (1:4) for my main speaker project: Tannoy Autograph enclosure. Big monster, corner mounted. I finished the first one. I'll post pics soon.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=74241&highlight=
I really like this enclosure. It is difficult to build and demads lots of energy, but the sound...
I'm still adapting to the scale of it, both in terms of size and dinamics.(listening monoaural)Why I comment that? Because as soon as I recover from the building of the full sized Autographs I'll make a 2:3 (or 8:15) replica of them to put a Fostex 206E or Audio Nirvana super8. They will be big (+/- 95*45cm) but corner mounting will make them use less space than conventional speakers. For around US$200 in transducers and US$150 in plywood I expect to end with a pair of jewells.
Why this enclosure? Because it compliments well, on paper, those FR that I mentioned before. Front horn reinforces midrange and rear horn does it with the bass. Over those freqs, +6db gain, it is said. Just to tame the HF response.
Midrange should be very open and warm and midbass should be strong and ample.
I know some will believe I'm crazy (I do) or will reject this project as too difficult but I bet I'm on the right track. (for listening to music)
Best of lucks with your own project
Regards
M.
I just went to full range Fostex in the last couple months, I use the FE 167E in deep & ported monitors on very good heavy mass stands, then 2- active 10" BASH amp subs. this has made me very, very happy & took the job of some very nice monitors, Studio 40's modded with the best parts . I had never ran any full rangers till now, 30 years of this hobby. They did something the 40's could never have done, imaging & stage that was NOT possible with multi driver/passive x-over speakers. At first I wasn't sure...lack bottom end, but there was enough quality to make me do the 2-subs. & now I wished I would have done it years ago, & I don'tloose sleep anymore on damn x-overs & how to make them better.Now I have none!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!They will show flaws in your gear like crazy, but when dialed, I am impressed & will not likelly to ever go back, I also listen to hard alternative rock, to Nora Jones..I run 300b in pp for 22w & mate perfect. The big thing is you can get super high quality sonics, without the stupidly high prices of the multi-driver adventure.. a good cap...? 50.00. all day long.. just crazy , I had 300.00 in just my x-overs caps & that is just a start.. now I can roll tubes & really tell who is who..I also do not run pre-amps so I can reallly tell a good roll. anyway ,,,,,,,,just build a good fullranger & add a pair of subs if needed for your music style & be ever happy.
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