While that is a great idea from an ergonomic perspective, it implies a design challenge. I am currently rockin a single sealed 15 inch sub to complement the little horns and the sub will run out of steam long before the horns (especially on bass heavy material with my bass heavy sub gain and with the frugals high passed) even in my medium/small room. Trying to get this type of spl from a couple of deflector sized subs is not going to be easy or cheap.
OTOH, it would be a great reason to run 3 (or more) subs.
OTOH, it would be a great reason to run 3 (or more) subs.
Update time. It's been awhile.
I tried the suprabaffles, I tried the deflectors, I tried positioning and toe in and everything else I could think of. This speaker was showing me no love and the only thing left was the final cc tweaking. It became apparent that there was nothing I could do to the speaker to make it sound normal.
This led me to think about other areas that could be improved to make the speakers sound better. I wanted a steeper sub xo slope and maybe a bit of parametric eq. I ended up buying the Thuneau software pc eq system for the same price of the featureless Reckhorn B1 xo (or is it F1 - who cares anyway).
The Thuneau software has all of the functionality (that I would actually use) of the Behringer DCX which is ~$300 and needs special custom cables (xlr - rca). It took me about 2 weeks to actually figure this little program out, but once I got the audio routing out of the way it was all easy as pie.
I did my measurements. Measured both the sub (a sealed 15) and the little horns (on the opposite side of the room) separately with a full range signal from the listening spot with Room Eq Wizard. I imported the graphs into SPL Tracer and made my .frd files. I imported the .frd files into the Thuneau software and ... whoa, wait a minute, why didn't I notice this before? (the pic below is the thuneau interface showing the 2 frd files before any xo or other dsp is performed - the green line is the sub and the blue is the little horns - the pic looks nasty cuz I had to brighten it up a lot to make is very visible)
The sealed sub should be a fairly straight line (you know what I mean) - any deviation from this would be due to the room. As you can see, that line is anything but straight - showcasing a ~15 db bump at 50 hz that I've been fighting with for the past few years. I've also had problems with vocal in this room - the frugal horn makes it worse, but it's always there.
But the thing I noticed right away when I saw this is that it appears as though I've made a speaker that has resonances which are located at almost exactly the same places the room resonances are located - 50 hz, 110 hz, 230 hz, 7/800hz. Now what are the chances of that?
Anyway, a variable xo slope (6 - 42 db/oct) and 4 bands of parametric eq per leg really flatten the response. With the addition of the pc xo this is now the finest system I have yet assembled - but it's very clear now that these little horns are a terrible match for this room.
I still need to get these horns into a more suitable room and see what they sound like. As I keep saying, this room is my worst enemy.
I tried the suprabaffles, I tried the deflectors, I tried positioning and toe in and everything else I could think of. This speaker was showing me no love and the only thing left was the final cc tweaking. It became apparent that there was nothing I could do to the speaker to make it sound normal.
This led me to think about other areas that could be improved to make the speakers sound better. I wanted a steeper sub xo slope and maybe a bit of parametric eq. I ended up buying the Thuneau software pc eq system for the same price of the featureless Reckhorn B1 xo (or is it F1 - who cares anyway).
The Thuneau software has all of the functionality (that I would actually use) of the Behringer DCX which is ~$300 and needs special custom cables (xlr - rca). It took me about 2 weeks to actually figure this little program out, but once I got the audio routing out of the way it was all easy as pie.
I did my measurements. Measured both the sub (a sealed 15) and the little horns (on the opposite side of the room) separately with a full range signal from the listening spot with Room Eq Wizard. I imported the graphs into SPL Tracer and made my .frd files. I imported the .frd files into the Thuneau software and ... whoa, wait a minute, why didn't I notice this before? (the pic below is the thuneau interface showing the 2 frd files before any xo or other dsp is performed - the green line is the sub and the blue is the little horns - the pic looks nasty cuz I had to brighten it up a lot to make is very visible)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The sealed sub should be a fairly straight line (you know what I mean) - any deviation from this would be due to the room. As you can see, that line is anything but straight - showcasing a ~15 db bump at 50 hz that I've been fighting with for the past few years. I've also had problems with vocal in this room - the frugal horn makes it worse, but it's always there.
But the thing I noticed right away when I saw this is that it appears as though I've made a speaker that has resonances which are located at almost exactly the same places the room resonances are located - 50 hz, 110 hz, 230 hz, 7/800hz. Now what are the chances of that?
Anyway, a variable xo slope (6 - 42 db/oct) and 4 bands of parametric eq per leg really flatten the response. With the addition of the pc xo this is now the finest system I have yet assembled - but it's very clear now that these little horns are a terrible match for this room.
I still need to get these horns into a more suitable room and see what they sound like. As I keep saying, this room is my worst enemy.
j a g:
It's clear you consider the room a major part of your problem (I have similar issues) - if you don't mind refreshing my memory, did you ever describe the dimensions, etc?
If you haven't already populated a short list of replacement candidates for the FH, perhaps my own experience might be of benefit?
I have tried probably over a dozen different designs in my little room over the past year or so, including only a couple of 2-ways, and have settle on 2 favorites, (Planet10 Fonken, and ScottMoose's Brynn) both using either the FE127E or the harder to source HA FR4.5.
The Brynn is by far an easier build, and doesn't require stands.
Maybe one day I'll even get some in room measurements.
It's clear you consider the room a major part of your problem (I have similar issues) - if you don't mind refreshing my memory, did you ever describe the dimensions, etc?
If you haven't already populated a short list of replacement candidates for the FH, perhaps my own experience might be of benefit?
I have tried probably over a dozen different designs in my little room over the past year or so, including only a couple of 2-ways, and have settle on 2 favorites, (Planet10 Fonken, and ScottMoose's Brynn) both using either the FE127E or the harder to source HA FR4.5.
The Brynn is by far an easier build, and doesn't require stands.
Maybe one day I'll even get some in room measurements.
Here's the room. 14 x 11 x 7.5 (approx and IIRC) not including closet area. Closet has big double doors. Red line is entrance to room doorway, short hallway behind this door. Circle is the listening area in general, a particular "best" spot has yet to be determined. The blue square is where the sub is currently located and where it actually was when the above measurements were taken. Floors are carpeted and the room is basically completely untreated for sound in any way.
I do have a short list of stuff I want to try. Maybe Aiko, Saburo and Sachiko. Each of these still has a (much more gentle) midbass bump and are probably not the absolutely ideal choices for this room. But the only reason the frugals are in this room is because it's the only room with actual suitable corners. Any of those 3 designs would probably work great in the (much) bigger room.
Your advice is always more than welcome, but I am not buying any new drivers until I've used the ones I have (108, 126, 206 - 1 pr. each). The 108 is the only one which does not explicitly demand to be in a horn, but without a horn it won't go low enough to meet a sub. OTOH, each of these could probably be used as HF driver in OB too.
Either way, the next speakers I build will not absolutely require corner loading and so they won't be in this terrible little room at all.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I do have a short list of stuff I want to try. Maybe Aiko, Saburo and Sachiko. Each of these still has a (much more gentle) midbass bump and are probably not the absolutely ideal choices for this room. But the only reason the frugals are in this room is because it's the only room with actual suitable corners. Any of those 3 designs would probably work great in the (much) bigger room.
Your advice is always more than welcome, but I am not buying any new drivers until I've used the ones I have (108, 126, 206 - 1 pr. each). The 108 is the only one which does not explicitly demand to be in a horn, but without a horn it won't go low enough to meet a sub. OTOH, each of these could probably be used as HF driver in OB too.
Either way, the next speakers I build will not absolutely require corner loading and so they won't be in this terrible little room at all.
The FE126 will work in the Brynns with some series R - not as well as the FE127. They will give you far better placement options than any rear mouthed horns, and they're far less visually imposing than any of the double height Spawn series, which can take more room for the soundstage to fully integrate than your effective listening position will allow.
On the first pair that I built, I used a bi-wire input terminal cup to allow for easy experiment with values of the series R - it should also provide plenty of space for BSC components if you elect to do so.
Not shown on the drawing is the option to build the lower deflector with stepped blocks - a real PITA - just add several front to back braces or fill the void with sand or your favorite ballast, otherwise it's quite resonant.
An inverted BIB might also work for this room (and wouldn't need series R ) Also a very simple construction, but with the narrow enclosure width, a suprabaffle should be considered as well.
There are probably dozens of enclosure designs for the FE108ESigma that are favored by DIYers, but the Aiko is by a wide margin the best I've heard- but, again, your listening position might be too close.
As DaveCan noted above, you might want to try experimenting with sub placement, starting between the mains on the front wall, or approx 1/3 way down either side wall.
On the first pair that I built, I used a bi-wire input terminal cup to allow for easy experiment with values of the series R - it should also provide plenty of space for BSC components if you elect to do so.
Not shown on the drawing is the option to build the lower deflector with stepped blocks - a real PITA - just add several front to back braces or fill the void with sand or your favorite ballast, otherwise it's quite resonant.
An inverted BIB might also work for this room (and wouldn't need series R ) Also a very simple construction, but with the narrow enclosure width, a suprabaffle should be considered as well.
There are probably dozens of enclosure designs for the FE108ESigma that are favored by DIYers, but the Aiko is by a wide margin the best I've heard- but, again, your listening position might be too close.
As DaveCan noted above, you might want to try experimenting with sub placement, starting between the mains on the front wall, or approx 1/3 way down either side wall.
I knew the sub position would cause some concern but forgot to comment on it. Any position along the front wall (same wall as the little horns) is unacceptable. It sounds fine enough (doesn't measure any better though) but not loud enough and I run out of power sometimes. More subs or more power or both could fix that but I end up waking people up before I get a suitable amount of bass at the listening spot. The door opens into the room, so the sub can't be anywhere near there and I can't block off the closet doors. Can't have them along the side wall anywhere near the horns (front half of the room). That does not leave much, just the 1/3 from the back along both sidewalls, which hasn't been tried due to furniture being in those spots.
BUT... the room treatment gurus told me that the room is effectively 17 feet long because the closet IS part of the room. Using 17 feet as the effective length, the sub actually IS very close to 1/3 of the length (the drawing I made is not to scale).
Either way, the sub is really not a problem. With up to 42db/oct xo (somewhere around 80 hz) and 4 parametric eq just for this bandwidth I could probably put it out in the hall somewhere and dial it in.
Chrisb, the last speakers I made were inverted BIBs (a bit oversized - or fat - for the 126). In addition to the ripply mid response, they have a bit of midbass peakiness too, but not nearly as much as the frugal horn. They currently live in the closet of this terrible room, as I decide what to do with them. IMO they are tuned WAY too low for the 126 (40 hz) since they are VERY large (for a 4 inch driver) but absolutely can NOT do a convincing 40 hz without a sub - which makes them a problem - a (relatively) very large and heavy speaker with that still needs a sub. The same might be said for the spawns I plan to build (I am pretty sure saburo will not knock me off my chair with a 40 hz tone) but I am willing to bet the dual mouth auditory experience will be worth the size.
Nice to hear that you like aiko (although I already knew that). I am strongly considering it as the next build, something small to introduce me to the spawns.
I tend to avoid subs for my music only systems, so other than to comment that for a room that size, a pair of smaller "bass augmenters" (i.e. powered 8-10"woofers) as opposed to much larger displacement drivers could well give you greater placement flexibility and performance. The CSS SDX7 is a great candidate for this - while the design pays the "Hoffman's Iron Law" premium, outboard bass amps such as the Dayton are dirt cheap, and you can get away with very small sealed enclosures.
I mentioned the BIBs only because quite a few folks like them a lot. I've only heard 2 pairs, Terry's original demos at VSAC2001 (FE164 I believe) , and an inverted pair with FE108ESigma. My experience with the smaller driver certainly concurs with yours; far too midbass ripple, and strained at moderate to louder levels - of course that was without bass support of any type, and on an outdoor deck.
For many folks, the Aiko could well need help in the bottom end, and they're not the easiest build in the world - a lot more parts than the FH for example.
I mentioned the BIBs only because quite a few folks like them a lot. I've only heard 2 pairs, Terry's original demos at VSAC2001 (FE164 I believe) , and an inverted pair with FE108ESigma. My experience with the smaller driver certainly concurs with yours; far too midbass ripple, and strained at moderate to louder levels - of course that was without bass support of any type, and on an outdoor deck.
For many folks, the Aiko could well need help in the bottom end, and they're not the easiest build in the world - a lot more parts than the FH for example.
chrisb said:
ATTENTION PLEASE!
For the first time ever, Chris and I are in complete agreement!!!
I think that the 108sigma/Aikos I heard at Dave's 2 years ago were some of the most "enchanting" speakers I've ever heard, at least for vocals and acoustic instruments. I wasn't alone either, as Kevin Haskins liked them, as well as a couple of hard-core, over-the-top, DSP multi-way Diy veterans whose names, if mentioned, would strike terror into the hearts of all Single-Driver True Believers.
Hell, I even have dreams of those speakers and that doesn't happen often.
As a final note, I would like to quote a line from The Prophecy:
Distributed Bass is your friend and will help you gain Sonic Supremacy over the host of opposing forces...
Best Regards,
TerryO
PS: Terry Cain's original BIB's at VSAC featured Radio Shack 40-1354 drivers.
I have accepted the fact that all fullrange speakers need subs. If I need to use a sub I usually xo at around 80 hz. Aiko goes down to 80 so it all makes sense. The Aiko build does not scare me but the cold weather and unheated shop scare me a lot.
That's a whole bunch of experienced ears giving Aiko the thumbs up. Sounds like a sure bet.
And one last thing I forgot to mention about the last graph I posted - I made many measurements and frd's. The worst of the bunch illustrated the point I was making at the time, so that's the one you see. That measurement was taken with the horns 6 inches from the corners. It is not at all representative of the much flatter graph you get with the horns 2 - 3 feet out into the room - stunning sound with a decent xo (sub is mandatory) and a touch of eq.
So it's out of the question to put the sub along the front wall in that small room because your not getting enough bass, and its a 15'' sub? Me thinks you really like your bass
One last thing you could try, not sure if it will do anything about your problems though.. I'd build a platform for each FH or just build up the floor with books about 10'' or so to get the FH driver height up, and keep them out from the corners about a foot and a half or two..
Dave
One last thing you could try, not sure if it will do anything about your problems though.. I'd build a platform for each FH or just build up the floor with books about 10'' or so to get the FH driver height up, and keep them out from the corners about a foot and a half or two..
Dave
Scottmoose said:Glad you guys like Aiko.
IIRC, TC's pre-production prototypes at VSAC were using the defunct FE168Sigma. I suspect he canned them when the driver went out of production as the ESigma needs completely different dimensions, and it would have been slightly out of place in his range.
Scott:
Thanks, I knew I'd get the model number wrong, but I was sure the pair I heard in George Wright's room (driven by 45 triode monoblocks) were definitely Fostex drivers. Yup, even though it was originally intended for the 4" Lyeco (major underwhelming experience for me), the Aiko is a stellar cabinet for the 108-Sig - the ultimate best ? - who knows
Terry:
I remember seeing Terry's BIB article on the old Full Range Forum, you may very well have heard (or built) a pair with RS40-1354, and maybe there was a pair in the Craftsman's room that year, but the only C&C systems I ever heard at both shows were Fostex based.
DaveCan / j a g:
Active bass with associated fancy schmancy EQ/XO and a pair of powered woofers serving as bases (or built into the rear deflector prisms) can certainly help any system based on a 4.5" wide-band driver. As Terry quoteth: distributed bass is certainly worth considering, and in a room this small, a pair of 8-10" could fill the bill quite nicely. I know for a fact the SDX7 works in this application, other folks likely have their own favorites. The placement flexibility of keeping the enclosure as small as possible is likely the key to finding something you can live with.
serenechaos said:
I certainly haven't heard the range of drivers/enclosures as yourself, the Nagaoka Swan among them, so I have no basis for comparison, but trust your ears on that.
If I didn't exactly say "better than any other enclosure in which I've yet heard the 108", my bad. This is a short list consisting of modified Buschhorn MKI, Buschhorn MKII, Frugelhorn, and inverted BIB.
Compared to the above (and most particularly the BIB), I found the Aiko far less lumpy from the mid-bass down, and simply more harmonically "organic", if that makes any sense. Not suitable for Metallica or AC/DC at 105db, but very involving with "chicks with guitars", such as Anne & Nancy Wilson. (I guess you could always double up on them
) Isn't it always worth building a different cab, just to find out if it works for you?
The BIB you heard was a first time build and not tweaked in any way to Earth's end like the other cabs we compared them too that day. They were listened to outside and not in the false corners which is not how they are designed and to my ears they still held their own quite admirably to both the FH ,and the A126, especially considering the simplicity of the BIB build, and the fact they were the first cab's I ever made Everyone hears different though and I have no bias's or interest to have anyone like the cabs I built, they were just a fun diy project and sound quite wonderful in their proper setting..
It seems interesting to me that the BIB gets a bad rap because of how it looks on paper, yet you hear it said time and time again how a perfectly flat nice looking on paper graph ,many times makes for a not so great lifeless listening experience. I'd put the inverted 108 BIB behind a curtain along with the A126 and FH we were listening to that day and I don't beleive the BIB would be shaking on it's platform lol
I think you and Dave should build a BIB like I did and figure out a proper size baffle instead of just winging it like I did with mine ,and then tweak it to Earths end, then put it up against the FH and see what happens At least it had a decent driver height which seems funny to me why that isn't the first consideration in some of these floor standing speaker design's??
Dave
Everyone hears different though and I have no bias's or interest to have anyone like the cabs I built, they were just a fun diy project and sound quite wonderful in their proper setting.. It seems interesting to me that the BIB gets a bad rap because of how it looks on paper, yet you hear it said time and time again how a perfectly flat nice looking on paper graph ,many times makes for a not so great lifeless listening experience. I'd put the inverted 108 BIB behind a curtain along with the A126 and FH we were listening to that day and I don't beleive the BIB would be shaking on it's platform lol
I think you and Dave should build a BIB like I did and figure out a proper size baffle instead of just winging it like I did with mine ,and then tweak it to Earths end, then put it up against the FH and see what happens
At least it had a decent driver height which seems funny to me why that isn't the first consideration in some of these floor standing speaker design's??Dave
I didn't use enough words either...
I did infer from what you wrote that the Aiko was your favorite cab for 108s of what you'd heard so far ...
I ask because I know you've listened to a lot of small boxes I havent!
I should have said "In what ways was it better than others/why do you prefer it?"
" less lumpy from the mid-bass down, and simply more harmonically "organic"" was exactaly the kinda thing I was looking for...
If I didn't already have so many other projects...
I hate even putting another one on the list.
Even a nice small looking one...
Robert
I did infer from what you wrote that the Aiko was your favorite cab for 108s of what you'd heard so far ...
I ask because I know you've listened to a lot of small boxes I havent!
I should have said "In what ways was it better than others/why do you prefer it?"
" less lumpy from the mid-bass down, and simply more harmonically "organic"" was exactaly the kinda thing I was looking for...
If I didn't already have so many other projects...
I hate even putting another one on the list.
Even a nice small looking one...
Robert
DaveCan:
I doubt that the issues I had with your BIBs were related to either the construction quality, or the dimensions of the supra baffle, but to be fair, you're right in that I haven't heard them in corners. If you have some time, we should get together for a short session at your place.
IIRC when the Aiko's were playing on the rear deck last year, they didn't even have a back wall, and while they definitely lacked bottom end "slam", the midrange and soundstage wasn't at all hurtful.
I doubt that the issues I had with your BIBs were related to either the construction quality, or the dimensions of the supra baffle, but to be fair, you're right in that I haven't heard them in corners. If you have some time, we should get together for a short session at your place.
IIRC when the Aiko's were playing on the rear deck last year, they didn't even have a back wall, and while they definitely lacked bottom end "slam", the midrange and soundstage wasn't at all hurtful.
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