I'm currently working on my next speaker project.
After a nice experience with Fostex FX-120, and an excellent experience with a friend's Supravox 165GMF+FT17H, I thought it was time for me to design some "affordable dream speakers"
I thought I'd pick up an excellent fullranger and join it to a woofer and a tweeter, with cutoffs like 200Hz/10kHz
The speakers will be active-filtered.
The most difficult thing for me is to choose the right fullrange driver.
I have in mind the F120A, the Jordan JXR6 and the Supravox 165GMF.
Looking at the waterfall CSD graphs, the 165GMF shows excellent damping in 0.2ms, while the Jordan needs 0.5ms. I don't eliminate it right now, though I doubt it can beat the Supravox.
The problem is that I have found no CSD data on the Fostex speakers, that's a shame
.
Do you have any information about those rare Fostex drivers ?
Do you know any other driver that could suit my purpose ?
Thx in advance !
After a nice experience with Fostex FX-120, and an excellent experience with a friend's Supravox 165GMF+FT17H, I thought it was time for me to design some "affordable dream speakers"
I thought I'd pick up an excellent fullranger and join it to a woofer and a tweeter, with cutoffs like 200Hz/10kHz
The speakers will be active-filtered.
The most difficult thing for me is to choose the right fullrange driver.
I have in mind the F120A, the Jordan JXR6 and the Supravox 165GMF.
Looking at the waterfall CSD graphs, the 165GMF shows excellent damping in 0.2ms, while the Jordan needs 0.5ms. I don't eliminate it right now, though I doubt it can beat the Supravox.
The problem is that I have found no CSD data on the Fostex speakers, that's a shame
. Do you have any information about those rare Fostex drivers ?
Do you know any other driver that could suit my purpose ?
Thx in advance !
youyoung21147 said:I'm currently working on my next speaker project.
After a nice experience with Fostex FX-120, and an excellent experience with a friend's Supravox 165GMF+FT17H, I thought it was time for me to design some "affordable dream speakers"
I thought I'd pick up an excellent fullranger and join it to a woofer and a tweeter, with cutoffs like 200Hz/10kHz
The speakers will be active-filtered.
The most difficult thing for me is to choose the right fullrange driver.
I have in mind the F120A, the Jordan JXR6 and the Supravox 165GMF.
Looking at the waterfall CSD graphs, the 165GMF shows excellent damping in 0.2ms, while the Jordan needs 0.5ms. I don't eliminate it right now, though I doubt it can beat the Supravox.
The problem is that I have found no CSD data on the Fostex speakers, that's a shame
Do you have any information about those rare Fostex drivers ?
Do you know any other driver that could suit my purpose ?
Thx in advance !
The Jordan will have a superior off-axis performance because of its small diameter.. CSD below 1 kHz however will be worse.
For high eff. and a clean CSD look at the Veravox 5s. Off-axis performance won't be as good as the Jordan. It should come close to the bandwidth you are looking for and work particularly well in an active setup. I'd pair it with the Supravox 215 GMF and an Aurum Cantus G2si for a superb active system. (..note though that the 215 will need a LOT of volume to get the best from it.) The 5s might be best utilized in free-air (dipole), like the Alon/Nola speakers (..or Dahlquist if your memory goes back that far).
Thanks for the Veravox suggestion !
Do you have any CSD and frequency response graph concerning this driver ?
I've also seen the Fostex FE-108 Sigma (new version) wich is said to have an excellent midrange. Is it also a good candidate compared to F120A or Veravox ?
The ribbon tweeter was my favorite option, but it would rather be the Fountek Neo CD2.0 or G3Si wich have a better CSD and less distorsion.
I've not precisely looked at the bass driver yet, I've seen an Alcone AC8HE which has a nice CSD graph.
Do you have any CSD and frequency response graph concerning this driver ?
I've also seen the Fostex FE-108 Sigma (new version) wich is said to have an excellent midrange. Is it also a good candidate compared to F120A or Veravox ?
The ribbon tweeter was my favorite option, but it would rather be the Fountek Neo CD2.0 or G3Si wich have a better CSD and less distorsion.
I've not precisely looked at the bass driver yet, I've seen an Alcone AC8HE which has a nice CSD graph.
youyoung21147 said:
Hobby HiFi in issue 1/2003 displayed a CSD graph of this driver. Its about 95 db in eff.. and is clean to a little over a quarter of a millisecond from 500 to 7.5 kHz down to 30 db (..and the top end break-up is reasonably clean though not flat in amplitude.. i.e. some "peaking" in response on-axis). The response below 500 Hz is slightly attenuated and a little slower in the initial rise-time, but is still less than a half millisecond down to 30 db's. Better than most of Supravox's drivers. On-axis the amplitude is not flat, but rises about 3db from 400 Hz to 2.5 kHz (..shouldn't be a problem though with an active setup that can be more flexible with freq. eq'ing.)
Note however that unlike Supravox's own measurement facility, Hobby HiFi does use absorptive dampening (back-fill) for their measurements. This is partially why Supravox's own measurements don't look as "clean" as they otherwise could (..ie Supravox uses a more "purist" approach to measuring - and has a very good anechoic chamber to about 70 Hz.)
The Fostex is not in the same class.. and if anything the best comparison would be to the fe126e (which is something like a cheap 5s - an astounding value though).
Both the Fountek and the Aurum Cantus you have listed have VERY limited vertical dispersion - which you may not like (..most don't).
The G2Si is more than clean enough from 6 kHz up. Nor is the distortion level enough to be audible UNLESS you use a low crossover point and a shallow slope - which would be pointless for an active based system. IF you like the true ribbon sound do NOT use the Fountek Neo series.. the mechanical damping of the ribbon does not sound the same as the pleated variety (..and NO it is not an increase in THD that causes this audible discrepency.) Trust me on this - the G2Si, or the G2s or Raven R1 (if you really need to spend more money) is the way to go unless you want limited vertical dispersion.
I noticed you didn't mention the 215 GMF. Though there is a resonance at around 640 Hz, below 500 Hz effectivly - this is perhaps the best midbass driver I've ever seen (outside of their 285 EXC 12v). Its very clean even with the purist measurment method.
This Veravox seems interesting !
Where is the damping placed ? Is it on the open baffle or behind the driver or in front of it ?
Would you be kind enough to scan and post the graphs so everybody could see them ?
What do you mean there ? Is the F120A way better than the Veravox ?
In Europe, Veravox 5S is sold 149€ and F120A is sold 180€ so the difference is not so big.
I don't understand why ribbons sound so good according to golden ears because compared to domes, they don't perform as well (looking at the measurements on www.zaphaudio.com ).
What about a horn tweeter like the FT96H ? I've had a nice experience with the FT17H. Could anyone tell me if the FT96H is worth its price compared to FT17H ?
The 215GMF looks very nice despite some resonnances. It could be my choice in a 2-way setup but I will be using a bass driver (8" to 12") below 200Hz so maybe such a big driver is not needed. Moreover I don't have so much place in my room so it could be a waste.
Yes I own a pair of FX120 that are used as true fullrangers in my current system. (TQWT mounted)
It is a good, very neutral and quite detailed driver. You never get tired listening to them.
But IMHO, this driver is limited in bass extension, in SPL (even if you don't listen loud) and therefore cannot express its full potential in a fullrange system. I find them slow and dynamicsless compared to my friend's Supravox 165GMF which really have punch.
Also, my young ears really feel like they have too little treble above 12kHz, which is not so good.
I tried to do a CSD with LSPlab but it was taken in my room, on the TQWT, at a distance of 8cm. I don't think it is a representative measurement.
Where is the damping placed ? Is it on the open baffle or behind the driver or in front of it ?
Would you be kind enough to scan and post the graphs so everybody could see them ?
What do you mean there ? Is the F120A way better than the Veravox ?
In Europe, Veravox 5S is sold 149€ and F120A is sold 180€ so the difference is not so big.
I don't understand why ribbons sound so good according to golden ears because compared to domes, they don't perform as well (looking at the measurements on www.zaphaudio.com ).
What about a horn tweeter like the FT96H ? I've had a nice experience with the FT17H. Could anyone tell me if the FT96H is worth its price compared to FT17H ?
The 215GMF looks very nice despite some resonnances. It could be my choice in a 2-way setup but I will be using a bass driver (8" to 12") below 200Hz so maybe such a big driver is not needed. Moreover I don't have so much place in my room so it could be a waste.
Yes I own a pair of FX120 that are used as true fullrangers in my current system. (TQWT mounted)
It is a good, very neutral and quite detailed driver. You never get tired listening to them.
But IMHO, this driver is limited in bass extension, in SPL (even if you don't listen loud) and therefore cannot express its full potential in a fullrange system. I find them slow and dynamicsless compared to my friend's Supravox 165GMF which really have punch.
Also, my young ears really feel like they have too little treble above 12kHz, which is not so good.
I tried to do a CSD with LSPlab but it was taken in my room, on the TQWT, at a distance of 8cm. I don't think it is a representative measurement.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Thought I'd pass this along. I emailed with someone a while back that had the F120A and the FE108E Sigma. While he liked them both, he thought the 108 was actually a bit nicer. Quicker and cleaner, as I recall, with more detail. Don't recall cabs, etc, just the conversation.
Hope that helps...
Hope that helps...
one1speed said:
Interesting !
I assume that the F120A and FX120 are very similar : same cone, same size, same dome etc...
What he says about the F120A is a bit what I feel about the FX120 : a bit round and slow, though it sounds nice and not tiring.
Maybe the FE108Z will be my "cheap" (though already expensive
) choice if I can't afford something like Veravox or Supravox.It's hard finding THE driver you want when you don't have measurements to compare
youyoung21147 said:This Veravox seems interesting !
Where is the damping placed ? Is it on the open baffle or behind the driver or in front of it ?
Would you be kind enough to scan and post the graphs so everybody could see them ?
What do you mean there ? Is the F120A way better than the Veravox ?
In Europe, Veravox 5S is sold 149€ and F120A is sold 180€ so the difference is not so big.
I don't understand why ribbons sound so good according to golden ears because compared to domes, they don't perform as well (looking at the measurements on www.zaphaudio.com ).
What about a horn tweeter like the FT96H ? I've had a nice experience with the FT17H. Could anyone tell me if the FT96H is worth its price compared to FT17H ?
The 215GMF looks very nice despite some resonnances. It could be my choice in a 2-way setup but I will be using a bass driver (8" to 12") below 200Hz so maybe such a big driver is not needed. Moreover I don't have so much place in my room so it could be a waste.
Yes I own a pair of FX120 that are used as true fullrangers in my current system. (TQWT mounted)
It is a good, very neutral and quite detailed driver. You never get tired listening to them.
But IMHO, this driver is limited in bass extension, in SPL (even if you don't listen loud) and therefore cannot express its full potential in a fullrange system. I find them slow and dynamicsless compared to my friend's Supravox 165GMF which really have punch.
Also, my young ears really feel like they have too little treble above 12kHz, which is not so good.
I tried to do a CSD with LSPlab but it was taken in my room, on the TQWT, at a distance of 8cm. I don't think it is a representative measurement.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The dampening is fiber fill behind the driver (though they might do it with some dampening on the front baffle as well
I don't have the issue.. plus it would be a copyright infringement. Sorry.
I meant that the Fostex Sigma is not as good as the Veravox - for the bandwidth you desire. Now the fostex sigma is a more balanced design in that its lower midrange and upper bass has less attenuation. As to the f120a, I don't know about that, but consider that the mass is higher than either the 126e and the 5s - and it seems to make a difference in the bandwidth you want. Now if you wanted a more extended driver - then either would likely be better than the 5s.. but then there is the 5x (though it is I believe discontinued).
I don't think anyone fully understands why normal ribbons are better. IMO our understanding of exactly what types of distortion are most meaningfull is still in its infancy. Simply relying on measurements is an exercise in futility. (..but thats not to say you shouldn't use measurements, just don't use them at the expense of what your ears are telling you). All I can tell you about the FT96H is that looks incredibly well built, has MUCH better off-axis high freq. response which should give more "air", and likely has its mechanical resonance in the bandwidth you desire and have a poor CSD.. On the other hand though the driver will likely be attenuated by at least 8 db.. so at reference level CSD will be better than you might think. Still, I'd stick with the ribbons I mentioned for an active system.
With the 8 inch 215 you could go more "vertical" with the design to increase your volume for a given area of floor space.. Additionally, considering room-gain you could achieve a fair bit of extension with a non-aligned bass reflex design. (..say perhaps a tuning freq. around 26 Hz.)
Oh, BTW.. the measurement looks about right - and if I'm not mistaken there was fiber fill behind the driver when it was measured. Correct?
Just thought I'd add a little more to this, as I have a quick minute. I currently have the FE166ES-R and FE168E Sigma running open baffle. The 166 is breaking in nicely, but I do note a little distortion when compared to the 168 due to the whizzer. The 168 being a bit more layed back and not reaching as high. However, the build quality of the 168 is fantastic. I have some phase plugs coming for the 166s to hopefully help a bit.
I did order a pair of the Veravox 5x drivers, sort of a special edition of the 5s. I've been dying to try them and decided to take the plunge. As long as my girlfriend doesn't find out...
Anyway, I'll post thoughts once I receive them, which will most likely be next week sometime. I spoke with Mr. Solen and he was helpful. He said he met the make of them and they are a very well crafted speaker.
Best of luck
I did order a pair of the Veravox 5x drivers, sort of a special edition of the 5s. I've been dying to try them and decided to take the plunge. As long as my girlfriend doesn't find out...
Anyway, I'll post thoughts once I receive them, which will most likely be next week sometime. I spoke with Mr. Solen and he was helpful. He said he met the make of them and they are a very well crafted speaker.
Best of luck
First, a quick post regarding Nelson's thought and the 168E Sigma. It is indeed a wonderful driver. I have a pair I've been running for quite some time and they are really nice. Layed back and very smooth, yet plenty of detail and easy to listen to. I'd recommend a super tweeter on top, but that's listener dependent. TC has said in the past that he thinks it may be the best compromise driver for full range, meaning good low end weight and you really don't "need" any help up top. It does have an amazing midrange with good tonality and weight to the male voices.
A quick note regarding the VeraVox, I changed my order to the 7x. It's going open baffle and I was having trouble seeing the smaller driver deliver much weight in the low mids and upper bass in my up and coming system. I'm not after the lower bass, just from about 200 hz on up.
A quick note regarding the VeraVox, I changed my order to the 7x. It's going open baffle and I was having trouble seeing the smaller driver deliver much weight in the low mids and upper bass in my up and coming system. I'm not after the lower bass, just from about 200 hz on up.
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