Ah yes, this is the world's biggest n00b question.
I've been wanting to DIY myself some speakers for some time now (I've never done any before, but I have some experience in some other DIY electronics).
Somewhere along the way I fell in love with the single fullrange driver idea and started investigating various enclosure designs.
This further peaked my interest because the various enclosures all just look so amazing. They look a bit more fun to build than a normal speaker enclosure, and also oooze in geek appeal.
However the bad news is that I've never actually heard full range drivers before, and I'm not sure that I'll really get a chance to since I've never seen them in Hifi stores before.
Someone warned me that unless I listen "simple vocals wtih sparse backing instruments" then I will be disappointed. Is this true? I like to listen to artists like the beatles, i like classical music, jazz, and also artists like bjork, massive attack, and some hiphop.
Are full range drivers capable of playing these genres well? I dont really want some speakers which perform nice in a few select genres and then fall over on others.
Sorry for such a simple/dumb question, but everyone has to start somewhere, right?
Also I plan to buy a ming da mc34-b because it's cheap and i want to introduce myself to tube audio. I have read that full range drivers are good for tube amps because of their high sensitivity. That site says that the ming da has "Output Power - 22watts RMS x 2".. so this sounds like another potential reason for me to want to go with full range drivers rather than a 2 or 3 way speaker setup
Thanks
I've been wanting to DIY myself some speakers for some time now (I've never done any before, but I have some experience in some other DIY electronics).
Somewhere along the way I fell in love with the single fullrange driver idea and started investigating various enclosure designs.
This further peaked my interest because the various enclosures all just look so amazing. They look a bit more fun to build than a normal speaker enclosure, and also oooze in geek appeal.
However the bad news is that I've never actually heard full range drivers before, and I'm not sure that I'll really get a chance to since I've never seen them in Hifi stores before.
Someone warned me that unless I listen "simple vocals wtih sparse backing instruments" then I will be disappointed. Is this true? I like to listen to artists like the beatles, i like classical music, jazz, and also artists like bjork, massive attack, and some hiphop.
Are full range drivers capable of playing these genres well? I dont really want some speakers which perform nice in a few select genres and then fall over on others.
Sorry for such a simple/dumb question, but everyone has to start somewhere, right?
Also I plan to buy a ming da mc34-b because it's cheap and i want to introduce myself to tube audio. I have read that full range drivers are good for tube amps because of their high sensitivity. That site says that the ming da has "Output Power - 22watts RMS x 2".. so this sounds like another potential reason for me to want to go with full range drivers rather than a 2 or 3 way speaker setup
Thanks
I have a pair of Fostex FE207E in simple vented enclosures and I listen to all sorts of music including jazz, rock, electronic, reggae, orchestral, chamber music, opera, etc.
The argument that one would only listen to cocktail music on full-rangers is dead in the water. There are reasons one might not like full-rangers, but this is not one of them.
A well designed rear horn can give excellent quality bass down to roughly 40Hz in domestically-acceptable size. If it were me starting from scratch, I'd build Ron's Dallas II design for FE206E. For smaller size and lower budget, he also has designs for FE166E and FE126E. Check 'em out:
http://fullrangedriver.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3
If you really need bass down to 20Hz, simply add a powered subwoofer.
If you don't want to go whole-hog to start, you could go with a simpler and cheaper design, such as some of the projects on Bob Brines' site:
http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Articles.html
(Scroll to bottom for projects.)
The argument that one would only listen to cocktail music on full-rangers is dead in the water. There are reasons one might not like full-rangers, but this is not one of them.
A well designed rear horn can give excellent quality bass down to roughly 40Hz in domestically-acceptable size. If it were me starting from scratch, I'd build Ron's Dallas II design for FE206E. For smaller size and lower budget, he also has designs for FE166E and FE126E. Check 'em out:
http://fullrangedriver.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3
If you really need bass down to 20Hz, simply add a powered subwoofer.
If you don't want to go whole-hog to start, you could go with a simpler and cheaper design, such as some of the projects on Bob Brines' site:
http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Articles.html
(Scroll to bottom for projects.)
Everything is based on perspective. Certainly some driver do better then others. You might very well be disapointed trying to listen to hip-hop on a 4" fullrange driver. As a general rule the smaller drivers tend to sound sweeter, but are weaker in the dynamics and bass. For Bjork and hip-hop I would recomend a larger fullrange driver. But it all depends on how loud you like to listen and what kind of speakers you've been exposed to in the past.
Joe
Joe
Kind od a broad question... there are a many horns with many different FRs... some work, some don't, the rest of the system, and the room, all play a roll. Costs range from <$100 to enuff to buy a car.
The better single driver rear-loaded horns i've heard are amounst the most enjoyable speakers i've listened to. The poorest aren't listenable.
You need to get out and listen to some... or just committ some cash & build some. For instance the Buschorn II with one of the FE103 family is right affordable & will give you a taste.
dave
The better single driver rear-loaded horns i've heard are amounst the most enjoyable speakers i've listened to. The poorest aren't listenable.
You need to get out and listen to some... or just committ some cash & build some. For instance the Buschorn II with one of the FE103 family is right affordable & will give you a taste.
dave
greetings hugz, firstly I was in you boat 1 1/2 years ago and since then I have built two pairs of horns and bought a great locally made valve amp made by weston acoustics. firstly with horns, build Rons Dallas II horns for the fe206e, they are a great design,,once the drivers are broken in and the speakers slightly toed in they're fantastic.and I listen to every thing from massive attack thru to miles davis to stravinsky and while there is something to be said about single driver liking simple music rons horns certainly don't fall over with other styles of music.there are of couse better horns and drivers but not for the money..
secondly for the money they want for the plethora of valve amps coming in from china(ding, music angle etc) you could get earle weston to build you a totally hand built amp of exceptional quality and value, and he is a gentleman to deal with. his email is ehtcom@bigpond.net.au . I strongly advise my first point and implore you on the second
all the best fergs
Current Retail Prices List.
Valid until 31/03/06
Amplifiers
(all amplifiers apart from the 6V6 have 4 and 8 ohm output)
6V6pp $875.00 (limited availabilty)
6L6pp Trinity $995.00
KT66pp Tranquilizer $1595.00
KT88pp Tempest $1895.00
KT66se Troubadour $1495.00
KT88se Temerity $1595.00
300B Time machine $1995.00
300B Touchstone $2995.00
Tweaker re-issue $1995.00
Valves.
Driver Valves
6SL7 Sovtek $10.00 ea
6SL7 Old Stock $20.00 ea
6SN7 EH $15.00 ea
6SN7 EH Gold $27.50 ea
6SN7 Old Stock $20.00 ea
Rectifier Valves
5AR4 Sovtek $15.00 ea
5AR4 O&J $15.00 ea
5U4g Sovtek $20.00 ea
5U4gb EH $20.00 ea
Output Valves (matched pairs or quads only)
6V6 EH $15.00 ea
6L6gc Svetlana $20.00 ea
5881wxt Sovtek $20.00 ea
EL34 EH $20.00 ea
KT66 O&J $45.00 ea
6550 EH ST shape $45.00 ea
KT88 EH $45.00 ea
300B Sovtek $175.00 matched pair.
300B EH Gold $250.00 matched pair.
300B TJ Full Music $525.00 matched pair. (by order only
secondly for the money they want for the plethora of valve amps coming in from china(ding, music angle etc) you could get earle weston to build you a totally hand built amp of exceptional quality and value, and he is a gentleman to deal with. his email is ehtcom@bigpond.net.au . I strongly advise my first point and implore you on the second
all the best fergs
Current Retail Prices List.
Valid until 31/03/06
Amplifiers
(all amplifiers apart from the 6V6 have 4 and 8 ohm output)
6V6pp $875.00 (limited availabilty)
6L6pp Trinity $995.00
KT66pp Tranquilizer $1595.00
KT88pp Tempest $1895.00
KT66se Troubadour $1495.00
KT88se Temerity $1595.00
300B Time machine $1995.00
300B Touchstone $2995.00
Tweaker re-issue $1995.00
Valves.
Driver Valves
6SL7 Sovtek $10.00 ea
6SL7 Old Stock $20.00 ea
6SN7 EH $15.00 ea
6SN7 EH Gold $27.50 ea
6SN7 Old Stock $20.00 ea
Rectifier Valves
5AR4 Sovtek $15.00 ea
5AR4 O&J $15.00 ea
5U4g Sovtek $20.00 ea
5U4gb EH $20.00 ea
Output Valves (matched pairs or quads only)
6V6 EH $15.00 ea
6L6gc Svetlana $20.00 ea
5881wxt Sovtek $20.00 ea
EL34 EH $20.00 ea
KT66 O&J $45.00 ea
6550 EH ST shape $45.00 ea
KT88 EH $45.00 ea
300B Sovtek $175.00 matched pair.
300B EH Gold $250.00 matched pair.
300B TJ Full Music $525.00 matched pair. (by order only
Hi all
Thanks for your replies. This has definately made me a bit more interested in going through with it and building some horns. The ron dallas 206e design looks quite nice and if it's as good as you say then It's very tempting.
I have a quick question for the australians (or anyone in the know..). Where is the best place to buy some fostex drivers? I know of madisound but they're quite expensive on the shipping. I sent a request for quote on some other drivers a while ago and the shipping costs came to 42% of the driver costs. ouch! And those drivers were similarly priced but lighter than the 206, so i fear that for the 206 i'd be paying 50% in shipping.
Is there anywhere more local or more internationally friendly?
Also, if there's anyone in brisbane (or again, in the know).. can anyone tell me if there are any local hifi stores which have any horn speakers that i could test? I've been to quite a few of the local stores and auditioned quite a bit of gear, but have yet to stumble upon any single driver horn speakers.
Are there any brisbane based diy horn makers keen to show of their wares to a horn newbie?
Thanks all
Thanks for your replies. This has definately made me a bit more interested in going through with it and building some horns. The ron dallas 206e design looks quite nice and if it's as good as you say then It's very tempting.
I have a quick question for the australians (or anyone in the know..). Where is the best place to buy some fostex drivers? I know of madisound but they're quite expensive on the shipping. I sent a request for quote on some other drivers a while ago and the shipping costs came to 42% of the driver costs. ouch! And those drivers were similarly priced but lighter than the 206, so i fear that for the 206 i'd be paying 50% in shipping.
Is there anywhere more local or more internationally friendly?
Also, if there's anyone in brisbane (or again, in the know).. can anyone tell me if there are any local hifi stores which have any horn speakers that i could test? I've been to quite a few of the local stores and auditioned quite a bit of gear, but have yet to stumble upon any single driver horn speakers.
Are there any brisbane based diy horn makers keen to show of their wares to a horn newbie?
Thanks all
“As compared to conventional dynamic or electrostatic loudspeakers, horns offer a dramatic increase in dynamic capability, image size, and presence. Harmonic distortion drops to a quarter of the value found in audiophile direct radiator systems”.... “In contrast, most direct radiators severely compress dynamic and reduce image size to the proportions of a symphony on a table-top. These are both severe distortions for which there are no measurements. More importantly, these are distortions which reduce the fun and excitement of music”.
Herbert E. Reichert in Positive Feedback Vol 5, No.1. (The Science of Beauty Audio Culture in the Nineties)
Herbert E. Reichert in Positive Feedback Vol 5, No.1. (The Science of Beauty Audio Culture in the Nineties)
Hi Hugz
For Fostex driver in Australia, try SDAudio. Jurek used to sell Lowther, AER, and Fostex, though I just looked has his website and while claiming to be home of the full range driver, I could find no links / info. He has an email and other contact details on his site tho...
http://www.sdaudio.com.au/
Cheers, Raymond.
For Fostex driver in Australia, try SDAudio. Jurek used to sell Lowther, AER, and Fostex, though I just looked has his website and while claiming to be home of the full range driver, I could find no links / info. He has an email and other contact details on his site tho...
http://www.sdaudio.com.au/
Cheers, Raymond.
Okay this is for the aussies on the forum..
I've conatcted a number of sources trying to find the best price.
* Madisound is USD$168.6 for a pair (84.30 each), with USD$73.06 for 3 day shipping. Total = USD$241.6 6 ≈ AU$326
*http://www.boxen-baustelle.de/ (located in germany) quoted me 220 Euro for a pair shipped to aus. ≈ AU$354
* Sytec, who I think used to be Australia's distributor is no longer their distributor. Major Music is.
* SD Audio no longer stocks fostex since the change of distributors
* Major music (located in SYD) is sells them for AU$140 each = AU$280 for a pair (not including postage).
* Hitek (locatd in MELB) sells them at the same price. Quoted approximately $15 (each i think) for overnight postage to Brisbane. So Total = $310.
So for aussies looking for fostex I'd recommend trying major music and Hitek. Madisound sells the drivers for cheaper but shipping kills it. Also buying local can give you a warm fuzzy feeling and save you from even thinking about customs.
I've conatcted a number of sources trying to find the best price.
* Madisound is USD$168.6 for a pair (84.30 each), with USD$73.06 for 3 day shipping. Total = USD$241.6 6 ≈ AU$326
*http://www.boxen-baustelle.de/ (located in germany) quoted me 220 Euro for a pair shipped to aus. ≈ AU$354
* Sytec, who I think used to be Australia's distributor is no longer their distributor. Major Music is.
* SD Audio no longer stocks fostex since the change of distributors
* Major music (located in SYD) is sells them for AU$140 each = AU$280 for a pair (not including postage).
* Hitek (locatd in MELB) sells them at the same price. Quoted approximately $15 (each i think) for overnight postage to Brisbane. So Total = $310.
So for aussies looking for fostex I'd recommend trying major music and Hitek. Madisound sells the drivers for cheaper but shipping kills it. Also buying local can give you a warm fuzzy feeling and save you from even thinking about customs.
I've owned Lowthers (arguably the ultimate FR), and found them an uneasy compromise.
Detail, dynamics and imaging were spectacular - they simply sound more 'real'. It's very difficult to listen to conventional boxes afterwars, sounds like there's a thick blanket over the sound.
OTOH I found them very room sensitive, and despite being in proper Lowther-designed cabinets, the bass was subjectively light. Interestingly, they measured OK, but I think we get used to a certain presentation of bass (perhaps distorted), which can be difficult to un-learn. Critical listening to live music suggests that the FRs bass is probably correct, but can sound odd in a domestic environment. (Note that most live music is already reproduced through loudspeakers or presented in a large auditorium - I think that's the problem: modern acoustic recordings are close-miked, but performances are usually heard from some distance).
All of which is to say that good FRs won't be fooled - they'll give you the music as it's recorded rather than as you expect it, which you may or may not like!
Detail, dynamics and imaging were spectacular - they simply sound more 'real'. It's very difficult to listen to conventional boxes afterwars, sounds like there's a thick blanket over the sound.
OTOH I found them very room sensitive, and despite being in proper Lowther-designed cabinets, the bass was subjectively light. Interestingly, they measured OK, but I think we get used to a certain presentation of bass (perhaps distorted), which can be difficult to un-learn. Critical listening to live music suggests that the FRs bass is probably correct, but can sound odd in a domestic environment. (Note that most live music is already reproduced through loudspeakers or presented in a large auditorium - I think that's the problem: modern acoustic recordings are close-miked, but performances are usually heard from some distance).
All of which is to say that good FRs won't be fooled - they'll give you the music as it's recorded rather than as you expect it, which you may or may not like!
Jaime said:
Jaime,
I think it is instructive to recognize that what you quote is only true of full sized front horns. These get bloody big below 70 Hz or so, and absolutely humongous below 30Hz. The rear loaded horns we are discussiong here radiate directly from a smallish driver with a small baffle. Then the rear wave energy is enhanced/amplified by using (usually) a 1/4 wavelength taper resulting in a mouth that is bigger by up to several to perhaps 20 times the driver area, but nowhere near the size dictated by horn design for mouth dimensions at the bass frequencies involved. This type of rear horn cannot be compared performance wise to a real horn.
There are a very few rear loaded horns where the horn complies with a much closer fit to full size horn design practise. These have the possibility of greatly improved performance, i.e. enhancement of the otherwise weak lowest registers reproduced by an often small single FR driver. The rear horn pictured in the avatar earlier in this thread of josephjcole is one of this type I am referring to.
Whilst I would not compare the performance of a compact rear horn to a full sized front horn in terms of performance or sensitivity attainable, I do consider that compact rear horns can sound very good and fit very well in typical domestic environments where large speaker cabinets cannot be tolerated. I am listening to a pair of rear horns close behind me in my office right now! With a footprint of less than a quare foot they are all I could fit in here, and the driver HF output is correct for seated ear level.
Hi fergs1
I almost purchased from SDAudio a couple of times, but never quite went ahead with my plans. Seems that may have been a fair decision, given what seems to have been inflated pricing on Fostex drivers. Prices of the new resellers seem much more reasonabke and are favourable compared to US.
I'll be going with Visaton B200s from Soundlabs for my next project tho...
I almost purchased from SDAudio a couple of times, but never quite went ahead with my plans. Seems that may have been a fair decision, given what seems to have been inflated pricing on Fostex drivers. Prices of the new resellers seem much more reasonabke and are favourable compared to US.
I'll be going with Visaton B200s from Soundlabs for my next project tho...
greetings hugz, heres a link to earle westons amps if your interested. Check out the point to point wiring cheers fergs
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/EL34-stereo-...69774712QQcategoryZ109837QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/EL34-stereo-...69774712QQcategoryZ109837QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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