Having had to reconsider (yet again) my plans, I'm now thinking about an OB design with a full range driver and a 15" woofer. I think I've narrowed the choice for the FR driver down to the B200 or the FR125s. The FR125s has the benefits of cost and, perhaps, less beaming of high frequencies. The B200 has higher efficiency going for it. I'm torn between the two, but I'd really like a higher efficiency design.
Thoughts?
I'd probably use something like the Eminence Beta 15" (or two) for the woofer. I'd use the width of the OB panel to set the 'crossover' frequency for the FR. One concern about the FR125s is how well it will work to transition from a 15" to a 4". Perhaps I'd be better off with a smaller woofer if I went with the FR125s. Perhaps multiple 10" drivers? I'm hoping to get 40 to 50 Hz out of the woofer.
Thanks.
Paul
Thoughts?
I'd probably use something like the Eminence Beta 15" (or two) for the woofer. I'd use the width of the OB panel to set the 'crossover' frequency for the FR. One concern about the FR125s is how well it will work to transition from a 15" to a 4". Perhaps I'd be better off with a smaller woofer if I went with the FR125s. Perhaps multiple 10" drivers? I'm hoping to get 40 to 50 Hz out of the woofer.
Thanks.
Paul
I've got the B200's in temporary OB's and am pretty pleased with them. Very dynamic, fast and good resolution.
I picked them because of the good fit for OB and the high sensitivity so I can start playing with some SET's.
I heard the WR125's in boxes last week. We bottomed them out fairly easily. They may do okay in OB for a smaller room but I don't see them doing what the B200s do. The mids were also not as detailed. Not a bad driver for their size though.
I'm also looking for a woofer solution. Options are (all with LP XO's):
a. 1 or 2 more B200s per side.
b. 1 15" woofer on baffle
c. 2 x 12" woofers on baffle
d. 2 x 12" woofers in W or H frame
None of the above would get you to 20hz. You'd need a sub for that. Whatever you do, you need to make sure the woofers are fast enough to keep up with the B200's. Then you need to consider baffle width, wings, driver placement, XO, EQ and amplification.
Have a look at the "darkstar" thread on audiocircle for more info on the B200's.
Also, be sure to dampen the frame to even out the response.
Good Luck.
I picked them because of the good fit for OB and the high sensitivity so I can start playing with some SET's.
I heard the WR125's in boxes last week. We bottomed them out fairly easily. They may do okay in OB for a smaller room but I don't see them doing what the B200s do. The mids were also not as detailed. Not a bad driver for their size though.
I'm also looking for a woofer solution. Options are (all with LP XO's):
a. 1 or 2 more B200s per side.
b. 1 15" woofer on baffle
c. 2 x 12" woofers on baffle
d. 2 x 12" woofers in W or H frame
None of the above would get you to 20hz. You'd need a sub for that. Whatever you do, you need to make sure the woofers are fast enough to keep up with the B200's. Then you need to consider baffle width, wings, driver placement, XO, EQ and amplification.
Have a look at the "darkstar" thread on audiocircle for more info on the B200's.
Also, be sure to dampen the frame to even out the response.
Good Luck.
I've been thinking about switching over to some kind of open baffle midbass-bass as well. This woofer seems to be pretty nice, nice price, nice Q, nice cast frame. Nice all around...
Joe
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/musicsupplycenter/Items/700-08-4506?
Joe
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/musicsupplycenter/Items/700-08-4506?
If it was me, I'd go for a single full-ranger like the B200 or FR125 on an open baffle, supported by H frame dipolar woofers, at least 10", preferably 12", 2 per-side. You'll need active EQ for them, but that'll get you down to circa 40Hz. For me the primary benefits of dipoles are at the low-frequency end, as they activate less room-modes (ironic as that's where they're hardest to get working). Of course, if you're going for active eq, then there's no reason you couldn't try other drivers with a lower Q, as you'd have the correction facility built in...
Tough choice, I'm sure both would be really nice. Check out the link below for info regarding the FR125 on OB.
http://fullrangedriver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=239
http://fullrangedriver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=239
Thanks for the knight woofer link, Joe. It looks perfect! And the price is great.
I would definitely want the woofer(s) dipole as well. I'm thinking of using gainclones of some sort for amps and would like to build the (minimal I can get away with) woofer EQ into the bass GC. That's all down the road a bit.
My main concern with the B200 is if it really exhibits the rising response shown on the datasheet:
http://www.visaton.com/english/artikel/art_771_1_3.html
Has anyone taken measurements of it?
I guess I'm also concerned about beaming. I'll augment it with the Neo3 if that is objectionable. Again, down the road.
Paul
I would definitely want the woofer(s) dipole as well. I'm thinking of using gainclones of some sort for amps and would like to build the (minimal I can get away with) woofer EQ into the bass GC. That's all down the road a bit.
My main concern with the B200 is if it really exhibits the rising response shown on the datasheet:
http://www.visaton.com/english/artikel/art_771_1_3.html
Has anyone taken measurements of it?
I guess I'm also concerned about beaming. I'll augment it with the Neo3 if that is objectionable. Again, down the road.
Paul
I`d not worry about this. Even when the response would rise (what I actually don`t know), as it`s obviously rising very uniformly a simple shelving circuit could care about this.
OTOH You could even have a benefit from that rising response and not angle the speakers to the listening position but to hear off-axis to some degree (literally spoken).
Large cone-area speakers often sound somewhat "underrepresented" in the highs when equalised to flat response on axis.
I thought I'd post here as I seem to be going in the opposite direction of Paul's leanings but using the same speakers. I have had the FR125's in OB since Thanksgiving and have been experimenting with them as to panel sizes, placement, listening,etc.. Although the FR125 are an amazing driver and mounted in OB, deliver a great midrange and lower treble, they aren't the ticket for me. I will use them in small boxes for HT as I believe they would shine in that application. They might do well in a horn, also.
One thing that did impress me was the OB alignment. I am now thinkiing of getting the B200's for 2channel. For my listening habits, the smaller 4" just didn't seem to have the power or fuller midbass/bass I like to hear. I am hoping that the B200's can deliver that in OB.
Perhaps this is the start of a quest for the perfect driver
One thing that did impress me was the OB alignment. I am now thinkiing of getting the B200's for 2channel. For my listening habits, the smaller 4" just didn't seem to have the power or fuller midbass/bass I like to hear. I am hoping that the B200's can deliver that in OB.
Perhaps this is the start of a quest for the perfect driver
Hi!
The "NoBox BB" looks interesting.Did anyone try it?
I guess the woofer could be substituted, but the idea is there....
Have a look here:
http://www.visaton.com/english/artikel/art_829_6_20.html
Regards,
Viktor
The "NoBox BB" looks interesting.Did anyone try it?
I guess the woofer could be substituted, but the idea is there....
Have a look here:
http://www.visaton.com/english/artikel/art_829_6_20.html
Regards,
Viktor
Vix said:
Haven´t tried it myself, but followed the discussion at the german Visaton forum closely. The sound descriptions on the website are quite independent and reliable.
The BGS 40 is nothing special. Any similar 15" should do its job equally well. The recommended crossover part (for the B200) can be used, but will not fully compensate for the rising frequency response of the B200, as you can see at the frequency response diagram of the NoBox.
If you do that compensation for yourself, you could even factor in a smaller baffle.
Forget about the side panels in the upper half of the baffle. With regard to the B200 they are only cosmetic.
Rudolf
@westend:
"Perhaps this is the start of a quest for the perfect driver"
Well, sort of for me anyways. All speakers are a compromise and its a matter of optimizing your criteria
The B200 was the "optimal" solution for the following criteria for ME:
-Better than 94db efficiency
-Full range (or close) with no XO
-Good OB performance (Qts>0.5) without EQ
-Less than $600/pair
-Good availability in North America (ie wait times & warranty issues)
-Relatively good performance reports from audio forums
-Decent resolution/transparency (my other speakers are more "polite")
-At least 7" diameter and xmax > 1 (spl in OB requirements)
The only other drivers that may have come close are from Supravox.
For more $$$$, I would be looking at Field Coils from Supravox and Fertin.
Good Luck
"Perhaps this is the start of a quest for the perfect driver"
Well, sort of for me anyways. All speakers are a compromise and its a matter of optimizing your criteria
The B200 was the "optimal" solution for the following criteria for ME:
-Better than 94db efficiency
-Full range (or close) with no XO
-Good OB performance (Qts>0.5) without EQ
-Less than $600/pair
-Good availability in North America (ie wait times & warranty issues)
-Relatively good performance reports from audio forums
-Decent resolution/transparency (my other speakers are more "polite")
-At least 7" diameter and xmax > 1 (spl in OB requirements)
The only other drivers that may have come close are from Supravox.
For more $$$$, I would be looking at Field Coils from Supravox and Fertin.
Good Luck
I bought the B200s and have them on plywood baffles (12"X36") I had lying around. The midrange is very nice, and the mid bass is good, but the top-end is very "tizzy" and raspy sounding especially on female vocals (read unlistenable). The characteristic is present even with a 1.0 mH and 4.7 Ohm filter. I plan on using the B200s as a high quality mid-range. I would appreciate any thoughts on integrating a tweeter. I would prefer to use at least a 2nd order filter to filter out the high end breakup nastiness. Thanks for any info.
DG,
That is sure contrary to my experience with the B200's. Some ideas:
Larger baffle, even add some cardboard to the side of the baffles you have them on, should make them sound more balanced and less tilted up.
Cover the inside of the basket legs with strips of wool felt and damp the outside of the legs with Ductseal or bluetac. This really helps. See Planet10's posts on modifying the smaller Foster/Fostex drivers. I'd try this before trying to add a filter to roll of the highs and add a tweeter.
If they are backed up to a wall, pull them out more.(?)
In my case the, B200's are more revealing than my previous speakers and any weakness or problems with front end components will become more obvious. This is not to suggest you don't have a perfect/flawless front end, just a thought.
I haven't made any modifications to my B200's yet. The B200's have a relatively large spider and structure behind the cone, which may cause more reflection of the high frequencies back through the cones to the listener. I plan on floating a thin layer of wool felt just above the spider(allowing for excersion) and see how that effect the frequency response. Dave(Planet10), if you read this what do you think of this idea??
good luck,
scottw
That is sure contrary to my experience with the B200's. Some ideas:
Larger baffle, even add some cardboard to the side of the baffles you have them on, should make them sound more balanced and less tilted up.
Cover the inside of the basket legs with strips of wool felt and damp the outside of the legs with Ductseal or bluetac. This really helps. See Planet10's posts on modifying the smaller Foster/Fostex drivers. I'd try this before trying to add a filter to roll of the highs and add a tweeter.
If they are backed up to a wall, pull them out more.(?)
In my case the, B200's are more revealing than my previous speakers and any weakness or problems with front end components will become more obvious. This is not to suggest you don't have a perfect/flawless front end, just a thought.
I haven't made any modifications to my B200's yet. The B200's have a relatively large spider and structure behind the cone, which may cause more reflection of the high frequencies back through the cones to the listener. I plan on floating a thin layer of wool felt just above the spider(allowing for excersion) and see how that effect the frequency response. Dave(Planet10), if you read this what do you think of this idea??
good luck,
scottw
DG,
the response of the B200 is rising 8 dB between 700 Hz and 1.5 kOhm. With your very small baffle the dipole rolloff will probably start from 700 Hz downward with 6 dB/oct. So you get linear response only up from 1.5 kOhm. No wonder the highs are unlistenable.
You may try a much bigger baffle and a filter with about 1.5 mH || 10 Ohm. This will sadly reduce the high efficiency of the driver but will level out the response.
Rudolf
the response of the B200 is rising 8 dB between 700 Hz and 1.5 kOhm. With your very small baffle the dipole rolloff will probably start from 700 Hz downward with 6 dB/oct. So you get linear response only up from 1.5 kOhm. No wonder the highs are unlistenable.
You may try a much bigger baffle and a filter with about 1.5 mH || 10 Ohm. This will sadly reduce the high efficiency of the driver but will level out the response.
Rudolf
Thanks for the feedback and tips. I will try them over the next few weeks when I have time. FYI: My main speakers are the Lynn Olsen ME-2s that use the scan-speak 9500 tweeter. My amp/pre-ampCD/ DAC has never sounded strident with the ME-2s which admittedly is not a very analytical speaker. I suspect my CD/DAC could be the weakest link in my system and possibly responsible for an edgy sounding high end. Anyway I will post my results. later
Hello OB fanatics,
I've been fiddling around with an OB (2x Eminence Delta 15 LF and Saba Greencone 20 cm + 10 cm tweeter) for some time now and I must say, it sounds very good. Thanks to Bert Doppenberg (Oris) who designed the Quasar ( http://www.bd-design.nl/forum/forum_entry.php?id=10292 ). He did the hard work, I just made a poor man's version of it. Maybe you can find more info on his site, or at http://www.visaton.de/english/uebersicht/6_89_u.html
Good luck!
Best regards,
teigetje
I've been fiddling around with an OB (2x Eminence Delta 15 LF and Saba Greencone 20 cm + 10 cm tweeter) for some time now and I must say, it sounds very good. Thanks to Bert Doppenberg (Oris) who designed the Quasar ( http://www.bd-design.nl/forum/forum_entry.php?id=10292 ). He did the hard work, I just made a poor man's version of it. Maybe you can find more info on his site, or at http://www.visaton.de/english/uebersicht/6_89_u.html
Good luck!
Best regards,
teigetje
It looks like Teigetje has hit upon a good driver for teaming up with a fullranger on OB. I've seem people talking about using Eminence 12's, usually the Beta, and none of those drivers is really going to get you much bass. I think many people are focusing too much on the Qts and average sensitivity and not nearly enough on the FR plots provided by Eminence which are using IB along with the Xmax. All you have to do is add the 6db dipole rolloff below Fequal and the increasing response of about 4db in the 1st octave above Fequal to the IB response and you get your expected response. Typically the driver's rolloff in the 30-50hz range far exceeds the dipole effect, but for some reason most ignore this.
The minuscule Xmax of .8mm makes the Beta models make them totally inappropriate for use as bass augmenters in OB. Their FR plots on IB also reflect that they aren't appropriate either, with response falling off the shelf below 50-60hz.
I've also seen talk about some other cheapie pro-type drivers. They claim high efficiency and high Qts, but again their limited Xmax and highish Fs make them inappropriate. Just plug their T/S parameters with a 1000L box and it becomes obvious.
The Eminence Delta 15LT (the 12 rolls off too early), looks like it might be pretty good. You have to keep in mind that in the low 30's you are going to be Xmax limited and will be lucky to get to a maximum of 95db or so. A lot depends upon the music you listen to as to whether you are satisfied without a sub. eg Just forget about Pink Floyd at very loud levels.
One answer could be to use the IB15's from Parts Express which will do 111db in IB at 30hz, so about the same with a pair in a reasonable baffle. The problem with that is that you probably need your main driver to play down to at least 80hz to get a seamless integration, since the IB15 is a heavy coned sub driver.
I understand that the IB15 is manufactured by Eminence and a startup company, Hawthorne Audio, is working with Eminence to produce a 15" bass augmenter specifically for OB use. The plan is to combine the pro driver heritage with sub type extension and big Xmax resulting in a perfect bass augmenter driver for OB use. Anyone who is not in a big hurry, I'd suggest waiting a month or 2 for these new drivers to become available.
Hawthorne already has an Eminence produced 15" coax, called the Silver Iris, specifically designed for OB use that is just becoming available. I should have a pair to report on within 2 weeks. They are 96db/w/m and I'm expecting something similar to the Selenium 15" coax that was available at PE about a year ago, with a much smoother top end and better build quality, priced at about $300/pr. The Seleniums flat out rock down to about 50hz on OB, so I expect big things from the Silver Iris.
The minuscule Xmax of .8mm makes the Beta models make them totally inappropriate for use as bass augmenters in OB. Their FR plots on IB also reflect that they aren't appropriate either, with response falling off the shelf below 50-60hz.
I've also seen talk about some other cheapie pro-type drivers. They claim high efficiency and high Qts, but again their limited Xmax and highish Fs make them inappropriate. Just plug their T/S parameters with a 1000L box and it becomes obvious.
The Eminence Delta 15LT (the 12 rolls off too early), looks like it might be pretty good. You have to keep in mind that in the low 30's you are going to be Xmax limited and will be lucky to get to a maximum of 95db or so. A lot depends upon the music you listen to as to whether you are satisfied without a sub. eg Just forget about Pink Floyd at very loud levels.
One answer could be to use the IB15's from Parts Express which will do 111db in IB at 30hz, so about the same with a pair in a reasonable baffle. The problem with that is that you probably need your main driver to play down to at least 80hz to get a seamless integration, since the IB15 is a heavy coned sub driver.
I understand that the IB15 is manufactured by Eminence and a startup company, Hawthorne Audio, is working with Eminence to produce a 15" bass augmenter specifically for OB use. The plan is to combine the pro driver heritage with sub type extension and big Xmax resulting in a perfect bass augmenter driver for OB use. Anyone who is not in a big hurry, I'd suggest waiting a month or 2 for these new drivers to become available.
Hawthorne already has an Eminence produced 15" coax, called the Silver Iris, specifically designed for OB use that is just becoming available. I should have a pair to report on within 2 weeks. They are 96db/w/m and I'm expecting something similar to the Selenium 15" coax that was available at PE about a year ago, with a much smoother top end and better build quality, priced at about $300/pr. The Seleniums flat out rock down to about 50hz on OB, so I expect big things from the Silver Iris.
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