Dear all,
Just wondering if I could gather peoples opinions on an Industrial Design Final year project I'm preparing to undertake.
I notice that the majority of front loaded horns around are DIY or at least partly DIY (i.e. use an unfinished Oris Horn on a DIY cabinet/stand). Also, on the styling side, this often leaves much to be desired due often to lack of really good tools and/or user inexperiance. Even the complete Oris systems use a fantastic looking Horn, but unfortunately couple it to a rather plain boxy cabinet.
The nature of my course means that I'm concerned with both the performance and aesthetics of the final product, so I'm planning on designing a Front Horn Loudspeaker for use with an 8" driver such as a Lowther of FE206e, probably 2 way with a separate bass horn.
By their nature they attract attention, but I'd intend to attempt to make this loudspeaker fit into the modern home environment (WAF important), and minimise how much it imposes itself on a room - i.e. a slimmer shape - and therefore likely taller and deeped (pilastro, the new kef's etc), elegant styling and finish etc, but without compromising performance.
I think there should be interest in this kind of product
- please let me know, would you consider buying something like this? how much would you pay for this product? Personally I think this could be done for around 2000UKP retail, under $4000, still be commercially viable, and better any other speaker at the price.
Please feel free to critique my ideas, tell me what you like about them or maybe something you would like to see tried out that I havent mentioned.
Cheers, Richard
Just wondering if I could gather peoples opinions on an Industrial Design Final year project I'm preparing to undertake.
I notice that the majority of front loaded horns around are DIY or at least partly DIY (i.e. use an unfinished Oris Horn on a DIY cabinet/stand). Also, on the styling side, this often leaves much to be desired due often to lack of really good tools and/or user inexperiance. Even the complete Oris systems use a fantastic looking Horn, but unfortunately couple it to a rather plain boxy cabinet.
The nature of my course means that I'm concerned with both the performance and aesthetics of the final product, so I'm planning on designing a Front Horn Loudspeaker for use with an 8" driver such as a Lowther of FE206e, probably 2 way with a separate bass horn.
By their nature they attract attention, but I'd intend to attempt to make this loudspeaker fit into the modern home environment (WAF important), and minimise how much it imposes itself on a room - i.e. a slimmer shape - and therefore likely taller and deeped (pilastro, the new kef's etc), elegant styling and finish etc, but without compromising performance.
I think there should be interest in this kind of product
- please let me know, would you consider buying something like this? how much would you pay for this product? Personally I think this could be done for around 2000UKP retail, under $4000, still be commercially viable, and better any other speaker at the price.
Please feel free to critique my ideas, tell me what you like about them or maybe something you would like to see tried out that I havent mentioned.
Cheers, Richard
Depends on what you call 'better'! Horns are not for everyone, especially front-loaded horns, thanks to the colouration, but they can work well. I'm fairly sure there'd be a market especially at sub £2000 you say? if you can do it, and make a profit at that price (which is the point of a business after all, so long as its not obscene!), I wish you the very best of luck, and at that price or thereabouts would be very interested in the finished product and its specifications once completed (and if it would fit in my room!)
You probably already know this, but if you're going to be designing one of these things, Martin King's site is the best place to start. Have a look here:
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Horns/Front_Horn.pdf
and here
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Models/MathCad_Models.html
for what you need. if you don't own MathCad, there's a free version of MathCad 8 Explorer to download too.
I know I don't need to say this to yourself, but if it's a commercial product, you'll need to licence from Martin. He is, however, a reasonable man, and I'm sure isn't going to charge the Earth and try to fleece you dry -that's not how he works! Anyone who puts this information in the public domain is hardly that sort of person!
As we are on the subject though (forgive the diverting) -a little rant against a few other people (I use the word in the broadest possible terms you understand). If anyone is out there and reading this who has been taking advantage of Martin's hard work and generosity for commercial gain, or passing his work off in the public prints as their own without acknowledgement or licence -get your wallets out! There are those of us who are not amused!
You probably already know this, but if you're going to be designing one of these things, Martin King's site is the best place to start. Have a look here:
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Horns/Front_Horn.pdf
and here
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Models/MathCad_Models.html
for what you need. if you don't own MathCad, there's a free version of MathCad 8 Explorer to download too.
I know I don't need to say this to yourself, but if it's a commercial product, you'll need to licence from Martin. He is, however, a reasonable man, and I'm sure isn't going to charge the Earth and try to fleece you dry -that's not how he works! Anyone who puts this information in the public domain is hardly that sort of person!
As we are on the subject though (forgive the diverting) -a little rant against a few other people (I use the word in the broadest possible terms you understand). If anyone is out there and reading this who has been taking advantage of Martin's hard work and generosity for commercial gain, or passing his work off in the public prints as their own without acknowledgement or licence -get your wallets out! There are those of us who are not amused!
Hi, thanks phase_accurate for bringing those avantgarde loudspeakers to my attention.
The name rings a bell to me, but havent looked closely at them before, some really nice stuff there. They give the impression of being quite niche, I'd like to aim towards something that could potentially be more mainstream and obtainable, but inspiring stuff none the less!
Yes I've looked at Martin Kings website a bit before (when making some Back Loaded horns in my spare time) - A very useful resource, and yes if I were to use anything from it and go commercial, it would all be above board and licenced.
Have dabbled with MathCad before, maybe a plan to purchase the full version.
Thanks for your comments, they're much appriciated and nessesary to me! Nice to know you'd be interested to hear where this goes.
Cheers, Richard.
The name rings a bell to me, but havent looked closely at them before, some really nice stuff there. They give the impression of being quite niche, I'd like to aim towards something that could potentially be more mainstream and obtainable, but inspiring stuff none the less!
Yes I've looked at Martin Kings website a bit before (when making some Back Loaded horns in my spare time) - A very useful resource, and yes if I were to use anything from it and go commercial, it would all be above board and licenced.
Have dabbled with MathCad before, maybe a plan to purchase the full version.
Thanks for your comments, they're much appriciated and nessesary to me! Nice to know you'd be interested to hear where this goes.
Cheers, Richard.
There are even more "horny Krauts" (all of them are doing multiway only though):
http://www.martion.de/produkte.html
http://www.speakerheaven.de
Edit: Forgot this one:
http://www.acapella.de
Regards
Charles
http://www.martion.de/produkte.html
http://www.speakerheaven.de
Edit: Forgot this one:
http://www.acapella.de
Regards
Charles
rabw said:
Greets!
The only way I know how to do maximize WAF without compromising performance to an audible degree is to build them into a false wall, ergo it won't be practical/cheap, so now it becomes a matter of choosing trade-offs and usually it's the sound system that gets 'hammered'.
Bruce Edgar's Slimline system appears at a glance to be a reasonable trade-off between size/performance and a creative soul could dress it up to suit a variety of decors without further degrading performance. Its pricing seems incredible 'bang/buck' in its performance range, so I guess it's the benchmark for this market niche.
GM
Thanks for the links Charles, all useful to me - I wonder why almost all of this sort of speaker are made in Europe on the continent, and normally Germany. Unfortunately this means if googling, I tend to miss any sites not in english, so thanks for them.
Unfortunately, although you're correct, it would dramatically improve WAF, the scope of my assignment means building a false wall is not feasable. Although I'll be making a one-off prototype, it must be designed with batch or mass production in mind so that it COULD be commercialised (i.e. simulating me working in a 'real' company, not a university)
Yes Bruce Edgar's designs are interesting, I'll be analysing similar products during the design stages, and will be sure to reference the links you guys have given me, I'm aware of a much wider range of varying design ideas now (in just half a day after starting this thread; and I've been into this area of design for a few years now) so this is all much appreciated.
Thanks again, Richard.
Unfortunately, although you're correct, it would dramatically improve WAF, the scope of my assignment means building a false wall is not feasable. Although I'll be making a one-off prototype, it must be designed with batch or mass production in mind so that it COULD be commercialised (i.e. simulating me working in a 'real' company, not a university)
Yes Bruce Edgar's designs are interesting, I'll be analysing similar products during the design stages, and will be sure to reference the links you guys have given me, I'm aware of a much wider range of varying design ideas now (in just half a day after starting this thread; and I've been into this area of design for a few years now) so this is all much appreciated.
Thanks again, Richard.
Hallo Richard,
I am not too sure what your goal is. If it is this
So it seems you would like to do something similar to Avantgarde but cheaper? ...or what? I reckon you'd have to be a lot more specific to be able to gather good suggestions.
Regards,
Bas
Horn loudspeakers for the home have always been niche and will always remain niche.
I am not too sure what your goal is. If it is this
then I still don't know what your requirements are. Do you have any requirements for the sound quality?
So it seems you would like to do something similar to Avantgarde but cheaper? ...or what? I reckon you'd have to be a lot more specific to be able to gather good suggestions.
Regards,
Bas
Hi Bas,
Fair comments, I do have a requirement for sound quality. The dynamics and impact is very important to me. I would like to design a speaker that gives a true sense of scale to music, and from peoples opinions and comments about previous designs, a horn seems to be a favourite way to do this.
Yes you would be correct to an extent in thinking 'Avantgarde but cheaper', however I dont think that that means a loss in sound quality (although I planned on using a Lowther rather than a compression driver and would have to find out how the two compare), and I definitely think there will be no loss in 'design' or 'styling'. I think its entirely possibly to design something to fit into peoples lives and maintain desirability better than any current horn does.
As to whether Horn Loudspeakers will always remain niche, i think depends on whether Horn Loudspeakers always remain overpriced and unobtainable to the masses.
Rgds, Richard.
Fair comments, I do have a requirement for sound quality. The dynamics and impact is very important to me. I would like to design a speaker that gives a true sense of scale to music, and from peoples opinions and comments about previous designs, a horn seems to be a favourite way to do this.
Yes you would be correct to an extent in thinking 'Avantgarde but cheaper', however I dont think that that means a loss in sound quality (although I planned on using a Lowther rather than a compression driver and would have to find out how the two compare), and I definitely think there will be no loss in 'design' or 'styling'. I think its entirely possibly to design something to fit into peoples lives and maintain desirability better than any current horn does.
As to whether Horn Loudspeakers will always remain niche, i think depends on whether Horn Loudspeakers always remain overpriced and unobtainable to the masses.
Rgds, Richard.
The expense really goes into a lot more than the materials..as you are obviously aware...People who bring into their homes something as visually dominating into their houses ....
(Dutch houses are small German houses a little bigger, hence more horns in Germany)
....want nothing less than perfection! Not a blemish or dimple anywhere will do. It seems to me you need to be talking to factories and materials experts a lot more than you need to speak to audiofreaks
If you believe John Broskie, and I do, it is essentially a couple of californians that are into tubes anyway...and the whole off the midwest is into Solid state..
Americans seem to go for Ribbon tweeters...europeans horns...don't ask me why
(Dutch houses are small German houses a little bigger, hence more horns in Germany)
....want nothing less than perfection! Not a blemish or dimple anywhere will do. It seems to me you need to be talking to factories and materials experts a lot more than you need to speak to audiofreaks
That is where you are underestimating the power of women to decide what comes into the room or not. And you are overestimating the demand for good sound equipment. True audiophile or good equipment is a niche to begin with...the masses are into multichannel (with speakers as big as a wristwatch) and mp3...(sorry rant..but still relevant to the discussion I think)
SE triode amps are much more prevalent amongst europeans than Americans.. a lot of Americans are into restored Dynaco's, McIntosch...etc...Americans want much more power...(blatant blanket accusation, but true nevertheless) than the average european...because of bigger houses and well...just because..
If you believe John Broskie, and I do, it is essentially a couple of californians that are into tubes anyway...and the whole off the midwest is into Solid state..
Americans seem to go for Ribbon tweeters...europeans horns...don't ask me why
A bit OT but I've found that the best way of maximizing WAF is through educating the W! During my last system upgrade I made a point of including her in all steps of the search process and was shocked to discover that she had strong preferences in terms of sound-quality but just hadn't had the vocabulary to explain them. Its lead me to believe that the WAF problem is largely the result of our own failure to integrate them fully into the process of audio system development.
How you can transfer this into an industrial context, I don't know... Personally I think many women find audio equipment a bit intimidating because they simply aren't used to looking at them. This is particularly hard with horns because, lets face it, they are kind of strange looking.
Here's what I'm picturing: A horn enclosure placed in another cabinet that looks like something more common... like a bureau finished in a wood that matches the other furniture in the room. While this will take up more overall space, when its outer doors are closed it won't even look like a speaker! Of course, you'll have to be careful in how you build the external cabinet to not interfere with the sound quality.
How you can transfer this into an industrial context, I don't know... Personally I think many women find audio equipment a bit intimidating because they simply aren't used to looking at them. This is particularly hard with horns because, lets face it, they are kind of strange looking.
Here's what I'm picturing: A horn enclosure placed in another cabinet that looks like something more common... like a bureau finished in a wood that matches the other furniture in the room. While this will take up more overall space, when its outer doors are closed it won't even look like a speaker! Of course, you'll have to be careful in how you build the external cabinet to not interfere with the sound quality.
I don't think many women would be happy with that assessment. I think women don't see the point in having large speakers around when small ones will do the job almost* as well. As long as they make listenable music most women will not be concerned with the technical details.
(*term used loosely)
Frankly my dear I don't give a d***n
It is a fact no more no less. Just name 1 famous female painter, sculptor or anything to do with visual styling. Apparently women have better visual memory. But there has been a study that said baby boys preferred to look at objects as babies..and female babies preferred to look at faces...now a lot of research contradicts itself..but I am absolutely convinced that men in general are more into the visual of things...look at the world outside...cars, houses, clothes, jewellery, paintings, sculptures, parks, windmills...just about everything has been designed, made by men. Women just don't care for the look of hifi..in general and would like nothing less that for it to be banished behind a door or curtain.
Womens are better at almost anything else but sports and the visual arts. Then again women according to a recent study actually know the offside rule better than men. But here it comes..in recognizing what shirts belong to what club...a visual skill...men were better. I rest my case
I just got a mail if I had never heard of Georgia O' Keefe...
Apparently she was a famous painter. Here is sample of her art...
It is called Black Rock
Apparently she was a famous painter. Here is sample of her art...
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It is called Black Rock
Bas Horneman said:
Frankly my dear I don't give a d***n
It is a fact no more no less. Just name 1 famous female painter, sculptor or anything to do with visual styling.
Geogia O'Keefe; and even your average Bose loving red-neck Bud-swilling cowboy could get the message.
oh, what a pretty flower, my dear
, is that a self-portrait?Bas, I'll politely beg to differ with your generalization regarding 'mericuns; I've personally experiences some very fine 'Niche" internet audio gear ( and attempted DIY cloning thereof )
Bottlehead, Decware, Welborne, crazy Ed Shilling to name just a few
But back to the subject full-range, multi-way horns and WAF; without analyzing "why" there I'd agree that for the most part they are mutually exclusive. - and those few out there lucky enough to have a mate that understanding, we simaltaneously salute and curse you!
Originally posted by Bas Horneman Frankly my dear I don't give a d***n
It is a fact no more no less. Just name 1 famous female painter, sculptor or anything to do with visual styling.
Sorry, Bas, you build lovely tube amps but your argument here is absolute rubbish. I could name you hundreds of very famous female painters, sculptors, designers, architects, stylists. How can you say women don't care about the look of things - everyone knows it's the women who do the interior design in 90% of homes (in the UK anyway)? Whether you like what they do or not is another matter...
In contrast, I think the more visually appealing you make the speaker, the more it will appeal to everyone, not just the men. Good design is not just about acheiving a good sound, it should be able to acheive a certain style too. Without the styling it is not industrial design, it is just industrial.
Ofcourse...it is just that ...a generalization....and a pretty bad one a that.
And I am just fooling about wrt Georgia..I have googled her name and actually love some of her stuff..
Like
City Night
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Fragment of the Ranchos
de Taos Church, 1929
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and
Bell/Cross, Ranchos
Church, 1930
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