Again, maybe to you, but just skipped through hoping for something worth listening to with no joy, so tried the YT 'Midnight Hour', 'Take The A Train' listed on this album, both of which basically only had the upper bass harmonics that any 4" up 'FR' driver can replicate plus even the cheapest I've been exposed to over the decades can typically do the mids/HF better also once a $0.98 mod/tweak is done: Modifications
1)
I know whizzers have been around , not aware since the 40's.
But its not the whizzer that I counsider 21st C break through.
Its in the cone materials, cone designs, and 2nd magnet quality/structure.
These 2 factors and perhaps others that I can not see or are aware of, have propelled these 2 guys right up in the Mt Everest pinnacle of pure high fidelity, a feat which no xover type can equal.
As much as they are hyped and snakeoiled, Seas and Scanspeak can't not, nor ever will match the DLVX8 and TB2145
Maybe Seas Exotic does have wonders,,but I will never know, as its too expenisive at $700 each AND!!! that driver is now 20 yrs old, = no new developments, most likely its OK, but not a match for the davidLouis and Tang Band
2)Point being, USA audiophiles are stuck in their own lil world of toy box low sens garbage and have no interest in making new discoerives of wide bands, = ain't gonna happen.
Old dogs can't learn new tricks.
3)Box/multi = mid woofer attempting to make bass 40hz-1500/2khz. , Maybe good at one, lousey at the other.
Most important at 87db, = wet blanket.
I give some tweeters some points,, but the 1500+ range is quite small sound stage witha 3/4 inch voice coil, next to the WBers 1500-3khz,, , its a joke.
Tweets are only good as sheen and shimmers, 7khz-15khz.
A sym orch notes are 60hz- say 3k hz.
= tweeter only good for ambience nada mas
4) WEll Japan is more western than eastern. So yeah I can easily see japanese audiophiles going for Wilson.s Tannoys (I Hate Tannoys), vandersteens etc.
The chinese audiophile are not wealthy, So they have to figure more practical.
At $500 the DaviDlouis may just do the trick w/o making the wife too upset.
YEs I am aware high sens does not = Wide bnad.
I get that.
Just saying the DavidLouis and Tang Band are bot like 92ish db, both smash, annihilate any Seas and Scan Speak from Troels Gravesen's labs.
Troels makes the worrlds best speakers in these designs.
His Jensen caps in 1 xover cost more than a pair of DavidLouis VX8!!!!
For me a speaker is ALL about midrange.
I could care less about bass and highs.
I can find those 2 fq's in any sort of driver.
Midrange is the heart and soul of our music.
The only speakers I know that deliver gorgeous mids are big expenisve horns and wide bands, 8 inchers.
Panels/stats/ESL's require special amps and are thus disqualified. Besides they are big, ugly and expenisve
I know whizzers have been around , not aware since the 40's.
But its not the whizzer that I counsider 21st C break through.
Its in the cone materials, cone designs, and 2nd magnet quality/structure.
These 2 factors and perhaps others that I can not see or are aware of, have propelled these 2 guys right up in the Mt Everest pinnacle of pure high fidelity, a feat which no xover type can equal.
As much as they are hyped and snakeoiled, Seas and Scanspeak can't not, nor ever will match the DLVX8 and TB2145
Maybe Seas Exotic does have wonders,,but I will never know, as its too expenisive at $700 each AND!!! that driver is now 20 yrs old, = no new developments, most likely its OK, but not a match for the davidLouis and Tang Band
2)Point being, USA audiophiles are stuck in their own lil world of toy box low sens garbage and have no interest in making new discoerives of wide bands, = ain't gonna happen.
Old dogs can't learn new tricks.
3)Box/multi = mid woofer attempting to make bass 40hz-1500/2khz. , Maybe good at one, lousey at the other.
Most important at 87db, = wet blanket.
I give some tweeters some points,, but the 1500+ range is quite small sound stage witha 3/4 inch voice coil, next to the WBers 1500-3khz,, , its a joke.
Tweets are only good as sheen and shimmers, 7khz-15khz.
A sym orch notes are 60hz- say 3k hz.
= tweeter only good for ambience nada mas
4) WEll Japan is more western than eastern. So yeah I can easily see japanese audiophiles going for Wilson.s Tannoys (I Hate Tannoys), vandersteens etc.
The chinese audiophile are not wealthy, So they have to figure more practical.
At $500 the DaviDlouis may just do the trick w/o making the wife too upset.
YEs I am aware high sens does not = Wide bnad.
I get that.
Just saying the DavidLouis and Tang Band are bot like 92ish db, both smash, annihilate any Seas and Scan Speak from Troels Gravesen's labs.
Troels makes the worrlds best speakers in these designs.
His Jensen caps in 1 xover cost more than a pair of DavidLouis VX8!!!!
For me a speaker is ALL about midrange.
I could care less about bass and highs.
I can find those 2 fq's in any sort of driver.
Midrange is the heart and soul of our music.
The only speakers I know that deliver gorgeous mids are big expenisve horns and wide bands, 8 inchers.
Panels/stats/ESL's require special amps and are thus disqualified. Besides they are big, ugly and expenisve
I'm going to sleep in a few minutes as my pulse is currently all over the shop, so I'm sure you'll forgive the brevity, and my sticking to fact rather than hyperbole:
1/ Well, now you know / are aware.
I'm afraid the same applies to the cone materials -nothing new with different paper / wood mixes, been used since the 1930s. Bozak were moderately interesting on that score (to cite one example).
The Seas Exotic, by the way, is not 20 years old. That range was actually launched in 2008, and uses exactly the same sort of engineering as the TB and DL you are promoting, albeit the motor is arguably better designed, and Seas typically produce units to an extremely consistent tolerance.
2/ As noted (as an unbiased British citizen), some US audio fans do, in fact, purchase wideband speaker drive units. A minority, but they exist. As far as high sensitivity is concerned, historically that was actually the norm until the 1960s and the availability of cheap transistor power, and it largely remains so for the pricer JBL heritage ranges etc.
As for old dogs not learning new tricks, my late doctoral supervisor, to give one example, would take major issue with you on that, and like all good academics was continuing to learn and adapt his views until the day he died. Old dogs (and young) can indeed learn: it's a question of whether they are willing to do so.
3/ Are opinions rather than fact, so I make no comment.
4/ Not really true; there is a lot of wealth in China and a good proportion of the audio market, is in fact aimed at their aspirational middle-classes with a reasonable disposable income. The budget gear, as elsewhere, is pitched toward the up-and-commers. I'm speaking from knowledge here of who different products are sold to (with figures) in that market.
1/ Well, now you know / are aware.
I'm afraid the same applies to the cone materials -nothing new with different paper / wood mixes, been used since the 1930s. Bozak were moderately interesting on that score (to cite one example). The Seas Exotic, by the way, is not 20 years old. That range was actually launched in 2008, and uses exactly the same sort of engineering as the TB and DL you are promoting, albeit the motor is arguably better designed, and Seas typically produce units to an extremely consistent tolerance.
2/ As noted (as an unbiased British citizen), some US audio fans do, in fact, purchase wideband speaker drive units. A minority, but they exist. As far as high sensitivity is concerned, historically that was actually the norm until the 1960s and the availability of cheap transistor power, and it largely remains so for the pricer JBL heritage ranges etc.
As for old dogs not learning new tricks, my late doctoral supervisor, to give one example, would take major issue with you on that, and like all good academics was continuing to learn and adapt his views until the day he died. Old dogs (and young) can indeed learn: it's a question of whether they are willing to do so.
3/ Are opinions rather than fact, so I make no comment.
4/ Not really true; there is a lot of wealth in China and a good proportion of the audio market, is in fact aimed at their aspirational middle-classes with a reasonable disposable income. The budget gear, as elsewhere, is pitched toward the up-and-commers. I'm speaking from knowledge here of who different products are sold to (with figures) in that market.
nothing new with different paper / wood mixes\
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Voxativ uses some sort of super thin papyrus paper = zero bass. sounded like crap.
AER I have no idea,,looks something like Vox's crap paper.
IMHO the 2 chinese labs found the most perfect cone material.
Seas Exotic 2008, 13 trs ago,,,,hahahaha, poor Seas at $850 EACH!!!!!
Wouldn't touch em.
I don't like the looks of that cheap crappy looking whizzer.
China probably has stereo shops, with all sorts of selections.
Here in the USA, the shops are just about all shut down.
So WBer's can only be known via chat forums like this one.\
I am glad there are in fact a few others like myself that are WBer fanatics.
I mean i am crazy over my wide bands.
Its what I;ve really been searching for all my life and now near my end days , i get to hear beautiful music, as if my dreams came true before i passed away.
Miracles can happen.
You just have to believe.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Voxativ uses some sort of super thin papyrus paper = zero bass. sounded like crap.
AER I have no idea,,looks something like Vox's crap paper.
IMHO the 2 chinese labs found the most perfect cone material.
Seas Exotic 2008, 13 trs ago,,,,hahahaha, poor Seas at $850 EACH!!!!!
Wouldn't touch em.
I don't like the looks of that cheap crappy looking whizzer.
China probably has stereo shops, with all sorts of selections.
Here in the USA, the shops are just about all shut down.
So WBer's can only be known via chat forums like this one.\
I am glad there are in fact a few others like myself that are WBer fanatics.
I mean i am crazy over my wide bands.
Its what I;ve really been searching for all my life and now near my end days , i get to hear beautiful music, as if my dreams came true before i passed away.
Miracles can happen.
You just have to believe.
Dear Mozartfan,
I am a big fan of widebanders however I would also like to highlight a few things about your comments.
There is one matter which a widebander will loose to one of those low sens multiway you spoke about .... bass especially in a small cabinet. For many apartment dwellers this is all the space they have. It is just the nature of the beast. This is especially true in terms of quantity and how low it goes. And for many people that is really important. Especially if the music you are listening to involves just heavy drum work.
Also for the extreme highs, there is a difference between a widebander and a proper tweeter. If you are >60, you might not hear it, but if you are in your 20s, you probably could.
My own preference revolves around a 3" crossed to a proper woofer at a fairly low frequency... and driven through DSP based crossover system. YMMV of course.
Oon
Oon
I am a big fan of widebanders however I would also like to highlight a few things about your comments.
There is one matter which a widebander will loose to one of those low sens multiway you spoke about .... bass especially in a small cabinet. For many apartment dwellers this is all the space they have. It is just the nature of the beast. This is especially true in terms of quantity and how low it goes. And for many people that is really important. Especially if the music you are listening to involves just heavy drum work.
Also for the extreme highs, there is a difference between a widebander and a proper tweeter. If you are >60, you might not hear it, but if you are in your 20s, you probably could.
My own preference revolves around a 3" crossed to a proper woofer at a fairly low frequency... and driven through DSP based crossover system. YMMV of course.
Oon
Oon
I hate to say it, but 2145's measurements ?
I don't believe the smoothed response from tang band.
Now I do appreciate joseph crow's work on the fa22rcz, you can see how many 8's have trouble in the 2khz area.................
Seas FA22RCZ 8" Fullrange Driver – Joseph Crowe
When I had the 2145.............................
By itself, off the floor, i needed massive eq to make a smiley face that makes my ears happy, but I am at the limits to my volume, room, distance, and music needs.
This was measured overseas (somewhere).
I don't believe the smoothed response from tang band.
Now I do appreciate joseph crow's work on the fa22rcz, you can see how many 8's have trouble in the 2khz area.................
Seas FA22RCZ 8" Fullrange Driver – Joseph Crowe
When I had the 2145.............................
By itself, off the floor, i needed massive eq to make a smiley face that makes my ears happy, but I am at the limits to my volume, room, distance, and music needs.
This was measured overseas (somewhere).
Attachments
That TB W8-2145 is a decent fullrange, but i would also not call it the magic bullet. A friend of my ex has one in a TQWT alignment and i heared it a lot. But next to my Mark Audio speakers, it clearly lacks detail and is to ragged on the top. That's why i measured it and made an LRC filter to tame that resonances (but i don't have the data anymore, it's on the computer of my ex).
It's better than most of it's kind, that is true, but it suffers from the same issues as most of it's kind (but in a lesser degree). It lacks xmax to go real low on a certain volume and the top is a bit ragged so it would need some eq to make it work. And like all TB fullrange drivers it's has the typical TB colouration in the sound, that may suit some but not all listeners.
If you like it, it's good for you, but that is an opinion, just like my preference for Mark Audio drivers is an opinion. Both are not fully flat and even dispertion, but sound good to our subjective ears. Just don't push your opinion as the universal truth.
It's better than most of it's kind, that is true, but it suffers from the same issues as most of it's kind (but in a lesser degree). It lacks xmax to go real low on a certain volume and the top is a bit ragged so it would need some eq to make it work. And like all TB fullrange drivers it's has the typical TB colouration in the sound, that may suit some but not all listeners.
If you like it, it's good for you, but that is an opinion, just like my preference for Mark Audio drivers is an opinion. Both are not fully flat and even dispertion, but sound good to our subjective ears. Just don't push your opinion as the universal truth.
Oon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Much better chat rom to discuss these new WBers, vs **that other site*
Just a few notes
~~Yes if one is needing bass slam, not going to happen
~~add you fav woofer
~~My fav midwoofer is a magnesium cone = SEas Excel only 87 db sens
~~highs, not too shabby with either the TB2145 and DLVX8.
~~Need more top ambience? Easily add your fav tweeter.
~~For classical music, lowest cello notes 60hz, making these new high tech wide bands the perfect choice for classical music.
'~~ I found the smaller WBers not to be as high quality in midrange as these 2 8 inchers,,,My guess is the body structure is too small.
The TB2145 and DLVX8 are set apart from the 4,5,6ers.
I think the best tech is given to these 2 speakers.
I see there is a critic of the TB2145.
He mentions higher SPL, the TB gets into some troubles..
So does your $1M Wilson, vandersteens, Thiels, all have series issues once you crank up the vol.
Most audiophiles have no clue what to listen for ina speaker,,, They all to the last man, get led astray hearing for bass and highs.. **I'm sold!!!* if they feel they have bass slam and crystal highs are heard.
Big deal, bass slam, crystal highs.
I can get any good woofer and tweeter and match the mega priced low sens speakers, on the cheap.
\
The one thing you can't get with a low sens xover type is pure neutral gorgeous midrange as with the 2 top dawgs, the Tang Band 2145 and davidLouis VX8.
For me, midrange has always been the only concern for my classical music.
By sheer luck and after wasting some $1500+ in upgrading my Seas Thors,,did I embark ona journey into these odd, unusla WBers.
Glad I made the experiement.
Payoff big time.
WBers are the new high tech speaker for the 21st C discerning audiophile.
Troels Gravesen continues building The Dinasaurs.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Much better chat rom to discuss these new WBers, vs **that other site*
Just a few notes
~~Yes if one is needing bass slam, not going to happen
~~add you fav woofer
~~My fav midwoofer is a magnesium cone = SEas Excel only 87 db sens
~~highs, not too shabby with either the TB2145 and DLVX8.
~~Need more top ambience? Easily add your fav tweeter.
~~For classical music, lowest cello notes 60hz, making these new high tech wide bands the perfect choice for classical music.
'~~ I found the smaller WBers not to be as high quality in midrange as these 2 8 inchers,,,My guess is the body structure is too small.
The TB2145 and DLVX8 are set apart from the 4,5,6ers.
I think the best tech is given to these 2 speakers.
I see there is a critic of the TB2145.
He mentions higher SPL, the TB gets into some troubles..
So does your $1M Wilson, vandersteens, Thiels, all have series issues once you crank up the vol.
Most audiophiles have no clue what to listen for ina speaker,,, They all to the last man, get led astray hearing for bass and highs.. **I'm sold!!!* if they feel they have bass slam and crystal highs are heard.
Big deal, bass slam, crystal highs.
I can get any good woofer and tweeter and match the mega priced low sens speakers, on the cheap.
\
The one thing you can't get with a low sens xover type is pure neutral gorgeous midrange as with the 2 top dawgs, the Tang Band 2145 and davidLouis VX8.
For me, midrange has always been the only concern for my classical music.
By sheer luck and after wasting some $1500+ in upgrading my Seas Thors,,did I embark ona journey into these odd, unusla WBers.
Glad I made the experiement.
Payoff big time.
WBers are the new high tech speaker for the 21st C discerning audiophile.
Troels Gravesen continues building The Dinasaurs.
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United States
diyAudio Member
norman bates's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: iowa
Lol, can we agree it is good for an 8" ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
just sitting here waiting for anyones recommend on a 8...
til then
TB2145 DLVX8
Top Dawgs of the WBers.
Someone mentioned Mark Audio,
No thanks. don't care for the looks.
diyAudio Member
norman bates's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: iowa
Lol, can we agree it is good for an 8" ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
just sitting here waiting for anyones recommend on a 8...
til then
TB2145 DLVX8
Top Dawgs of the WBers.
Someone mentioned Mark Audio,
No thanks. don't care for the looks.
Don’t know about Joeseph’s stuff but that is one of the 8s i like. I EnABLed them as well.
Visaton B200 with phase plugs as well, but it is hard to put into a box. And i did an OB already.
dave
quite coloured. Particualrily up high
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Colored highs???
1st for me,
Only midrange can be colored, grays, browns, muddy and wooly... You know your average box xover midwoofers, that you find in Wilsons, Vandersteens, Troels Gravesens.Thiels, Magnepans,
many more.
Not the Tang band 2145, pure neutral midrange.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Colored highs???
1st for me,
Only midrange can be colored, grays, browns, muddy and wooly... You know your average box xover midwoofers, that you find in Wilsons, Vandersteens, Troels Gravesens.Thiels, Magnepans,
many more.
Not the Tang band 2145, pure neutral midrange.
FA22rcz?
did you try any frequency compensation ?
I originally resold w8-1808 because for that much money, why do I need to eq it to be semi flat ?
I don't mean to offend, but here goes.................
That is a rough video of the 2145..................
Can't say I would run out and buy one based on your video.
to me, it just illustrates the "girl and guitar" music is best for full range drivers, even an 8".
I've been wrestling with the acoustics of my room for a while now.
Your rt60 is sooooooo long, you can hear it even in your voice...........
That is a small, extremely reflective room also..................
Notice close up to the speaker, it sounds pretty good, then you get 6' away, and into the mud you go.
I hear distortion up the wazoo, but probably frequency modulation, not much you can do about that......
4:09, 5:04, 5:25, 6:33................
I had to stop listening at 8:00.
I enjoy your passion, and accent.
And I'm a fan of the driver, I am.
So much I rebought a pair after selling my "center channel" I made maybe a year ago.
I highly recommend it, given volume, music, distance, and dispersion constraints.
I hear a lack of baffle step, like bass guitar (100-200hz).
So, take my comments with a grain of salt.
An 8" full range does some things very well.
I got the eq in nice, 7' away, but don't expect more than tv volume levels.
but, it needs a bunch of bass eq.
or maybe have them on the floor angled up.
I lost a lot of bass when I moved my box off the floor, a lot................
did you try any frequency compensation ?
I originally resold w8-1808 because for that much money, why do I need to eq it to be semi flat ?
I don't mean to offend, but here goes.................
That is a rough video of the 2145..................
Can't say I would run out and buy one based on your video.
to me, it just illustrates the "girl and guitar" music is best for full range drivers, even an 8".
I've been wrestling with the acoustics of my room for a while now.
Your rt60 is sooooooo long, you can hear it even in your voice...........
That is a small, extremely reflective room also..................
Notice close up to the speaker, it sounds pretty good, then you get 6' away, and into the mud you go.
I hear distortion up the wazoo, but probably frequency modulation, not much you can do about that......
4:09, 5:04, 5:25, 6:33................
I had to stop listening at 8:00.
I enjoy your passion, and accent.
And I'm a fan of the driver, I am.
So much I rebought a pair after selling my "center channel" I made maybe a year ago.
I highly recommend it, given volume, music, distance, and dispersion constraints.
I hear a lack of baffle step, like bass guitar (100-200hz).
So, take my comments with a grain of salt.
An 8" full range does some things very well.
I got the eq in nice, 7' away, but don't expect more than tv volume levels.
but, it needs a bunch of bass eq.
or maybe have them on the floor angled up.
I lost a lot of bass when I moved my box off the floor, a lot................
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