I understand where you are coming from my comments are:
1. Mozartfan made a direct comparison with the much reviewed and loved by reviewers(see reviews from Parts express, you can trust? I can) ie W8-2145, both are comparable. One can only deduce that the VX8 has certain "audiophile" qualities to them that one should deflect/reject easily.
2. I bought many full-range units from ALiexpress and not all of them are expensive compared to VX8 and most if not all of them are decent to very good and none of them is crappy.
3. The only reservation I have about the VX8 is the consistency of audio quality right across the different units and for the unit price it is difficult to justify unless you have the guarantee of the seller that you can return them.
4. In essence if one is not willing to take the risk then buy from reputable sources and manufacturers, eg Lowter(yet some users may not prefer them). Sometimes one can find "GEMS" from unproven sources and sellers.
Technical spec counts but not the only determining factor I know cos I am an engineer.
Re the above:
1/ Depends what you mean by 'trust'. If you mean 'they like them', sure, and I don't see anybody here who is disputing that. Those TB drivers are decent units of the type. That being said, assuming (just assuming) the published data is correct, they will in most cases have a different LF alignment if nothing else to the VX8 (ditto) if used in the same box, so any comparison between them needs to keep that in mind, and a preference for one or the other in this region may well be simply a result of this rather than any qualitative advantage.
Incidentally, the post you are referring to was primarily written in reference to the two directly above mine about Diatone clones rather than the OP's VX8 (not that I'd necessarily exclude anything), which have a highly questionable reputation. Certainly, I've had a couple of those & others through to test that weren't great, and I'm not alone. YMMV as always.
2/ I'm glad for you. I wish that was the experience of everybody, but unfortunately it isn't, so some cynicism for such things sold through aliexpress, alibaba, ebay & some direct sellers for that matter is my natural status.
3/ Quite. Hence the 'No doubt there are sometimes some very good examples, but a degree of caution and thorough research is strongly advisable in the circumstances' remark. The truth is, in many cases published data on these vending sites is more or less fiction and production QA / QC not good (as noted above), and since it's often difficult to return defective purchases, caveat emptor and applying advance research is a sensible policy.
4/ Yes, as I noted, you can sometimes find good examples. I recall a very nice 10in driver a few years back -alas, long since vanished. But if you are not willing to risk a shot in the dark though, I'd stick with the established brands or dealer networks where there is some easier comeback if the worst comes to the worst. Probably comes from the fact that my earnings, for the past 10 years, have been about 20% below the UK's national minimum wage threshold -risk-taking is not a good policy in the circumstances.
I'm not sure who it is here who you are suggesting has said 'technical specs. are the only things that count'? Whoever it is though is sadly mistaken. Although if you take it to a very broad principle, technically it's correct inasmuch as everything the drive unit does & you hear is related to its engineering. You need a lot more than just T/S parameters and an FR + impedance plot to draw highly detailed conclusions on that front though.
1/ Depends what you mean by 'trust'. If you mean 'they like them', sure, and I don't see anybody here who is disputing that. Those TB drivers are decent units of the type. That being said, assuming (just assuming) the published data is correct, they will in most cases have a different LF alignment if nothing else to the VX8 (ditto) if used in the same box, so any comparison between them needs to keep that in mind, and a preference for one or the other in this region may well be simply a result of this rather than any qualitative advantage.
Incidentally, the post you are referring to was primarily written in reference to the two directly above mine about Diatone clones rather than the OP's VX8 (not that I'd necessarily exclude anything), which have a highly questionable reputation. Certainly, I've had a couple of those & others through to test that weren't great, and I'm not alone. YMMV as always.
2/ I'm glad for you. I wish that was the experience of everybody, but unfortunately it isn't, so some cynicism for such things sold through aliexpress, alibaba, ebay & some direct sellers for that matter is my natural status.
3/ Quite. Hence the 'No doubt there are sometimes some very good examples, but a degree of caution and thorough research is strongly advisable in the circumstances' remark. The truth is, in many cases published data on these vending sites is more or less fiction and production QA / QC not good (as noted above), and since it's often difficult to return defective purchases, caveat emptor and applying advance research is a sensible policy.
4/ Yes, as I noted, you can sometimes find good examples. I recall a very nice 10in driver a few years back -alas, long since vanished. But if you are not willing to risk a shot in the dark though, I'd stick with the established brands or dealer networks where there is some easier comeback if the worst comes to the worst. Probably comes from the fact that my earnings, for the past 10 years, have been about 20% below the UK's national minimum wage threshold -risk-taking is not a good policy in the circumstances.
I'm not sure who it is here who you are suggesting has said 'technical specs. are the only things that count'? Whoever it is though is sadly mistaken. Although if you take it to a very broad principle, technically it's correct inasmuch as everything the drive unit does & you hear is related to its engineering. You need a lot more than just T/S parameters and an FR + impedance plot to draw highly detailed conclusions on that front though.
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Hi Scott,
I didn't realise you were referring specifically to my question on diatone clones either. I am curious to hear a more in-depth impression that you have on them. They are not true diatone clones in the sense that diatone truly only existed as a 6 1/2" if I am not mistaken.
If I have heard from someone that the true diatone clones are not bad, that is the true direct copy. But those with phase plug, different size etc, does not sound too good.
Thanks
Oon
I didn't realise you were referring specifically to my question on diatone clones either. I am curious to hear a more in-depth impression that you have on them. They are not true diatone clones in the sense that diatone truly only existed as a 6 1/2" if I am not mistaken.
If I have heard from someone that the true diatone clones are not bad, that is the true direct copy. But those with phase plug, different size etc, does not sound too good.
Thanks
Oon
YMMV as always applies to this -I tested them only, I didn't have a specific box for them.
No, you're not mistaken as far as my currently slightly singed-about-the-edges memory recalls. 'Diatone clone' is just used here as an euphemism for any of the lookalikes trading off the P610 aesthetic & some of their nominal features rather than necessarily being a clone of the originals. That itself might be tricky, since there were quite a few variations of the P610, with rather different specs. & characteristics.
Be that as it may, I had a 4in (I think it was) and a nominal 6 1/2in through here. The latter was OK -not quite akin to one of the nearest originals, but acceptable. The smaller was lousy; looked OK physically if you didn't get too close, but not even remotely close to claimed & a misaligned coil on one. I'm not singling out the Diatone aesthetic inspired units of course, there are other bad units. There are also some good as well. My only real point above is that a bit of caveat emptor is advisible as it's often a bit of a shot in the dark about whether you get a good driver design, and then, whether that good design is built well, to decent tolerances. The OP is clearly happy with his VX8s -so much the better. It's the sifting of the wheat from the chaff that can sometimes be tricky though.
No, you're not mistaken as far as my currently slightly singed-about-the-edges memory recalls. 'Diatone clone' is just used here as an euphemism for any of the lookalikes trading off the P610 aesthetic & some of their nominal features rather than necessarily being a clone of the originals. That itself might be tricky, since there were quite a few variations of the P610, with rather different specs. & characteristics.
Be that as it may, I had a 4in (I think it was) and a nominal 6 1/2in through here. The latter was OK -not quite akin to one of the nearest originals, but acceptable. The smaller was lousy; looked OK physically if you didn't get too close, but not even remotely close to claimed & a misaligned coil on one. I'm not singling out the Diatone aesthetic inspired units of course, there are other bad units. There are also some good as well. My only real point above is that a bit of caveat emptor is advisible as it's often a bit of a shot in the dark about whether you get a good driver design, and then, whether that good design is built well, to decent tolerances. The OP is clearly happy with his VX8s -so much the better. It's the sifting of the wheat from the chaff that can sometimes be tricky though.
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Here I attempt to explain why a true high fidelity high sens wide band should be employed as The Main Speaker,,with your current speakers as nothing more than stage hands, or side voices,
The real Soprano and Tenor is the wide band.
DavidLouis VX8 Pure high Fidelity Midrange - YouTube
The real Soprano and Tenor is the wide band.
DavidLouis VX8 Pure high Fidelity Midrange - YouTube
No, I was asking about the Diatone semi clones .....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The DavidLouis Diatones were trash.
The 2 best wide bands are
Tang Band 2145
DavidLouis VX8
Tang band W82145 Super High Fidelity - YouTube
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The DavidLouis Diatones were trash.
The 2 best wide bands are
Tang Band 2145
DavidLouis VX8
Tang band W82145 Super High Fidelity - YouTube
The OP is clearly happy with his VX8s -so much the better. It's the sifting of the wheat from the chaff that can sometimes be tricky though.
Yes I am happy with the DLVX8 wide band
I've been testing it past few weeks and really have zero complaints.
Bss 10/10
Mids 10/10
Highs 9/10 if NOT 10/10.
Wilson, Vandersteen, Thiel, Sonus faber, even Magnepan, and Sound Lab, martin Logan.s ,, all these may offer something the SINGLE wide band
TB2145
DLVX8
misses out on.
Not sure,
To my ears these 2 high tech WBers do all that I expect froma single speaker and then some.
8 inch cone is the ideal size, bamboo wood (VX8) Bamboo fiber (2145) seem to be the ideal material for wide band cone voicing.
Both speakers sound near identical,, hard to understand how possible when both are not even close in looks/design.
I stayed with the VX8 as maybe a minisclue superior midrange (Blind test would only be a guess which is which).
Others here with superior trained ears mya very well detect which they prefer.
I just could not tell them apart.
The TB2145 may have slight superior sheen on the highs.
I think we will see more of this WBer with traditional spaker assist in the future.
You know the live recording of Mahavishnu Central Park 1973, that we all cringe our ears when listening to,,,guess what, with these non coloring, no distortion wide bands, makes this recording enjoyable.
DavidLouis VX8 Full Range Bass test - YouTube
Yes I am happy with the DLVX8 wide band
I've been testing it past few weeks and really have zero complaints.
Bss 10/10
Mids 10/10
Highs 9/10 if NOT 10/10.
Wilson, Vandersteen, Thiel, Sonus faber, even Magnepan, and Sound Lab, martin Logan.s ,, all these may offer something the SINGLE wide band
TB2145
DLVX8
misses out on.
Not sure,
To my ears these 2 high tech WBers do all that I expect froma single speaker and then some.
8 inch cone is the ideal size, bamboo wood (VX8) Bamboo fiber (2145) seem to be the ideal material for wide band cone voicing.
Both speakers sound near identical,, hard to understand how possible when both are not even close in looks/design.
I stayed with the VX8 as maybe a minisclue superior midrange (Blind test would only be a guess which is which).
Others here with superior trained ears mya very well detect which they prefer.
I just could not tell them apart.
The TB2145 may have slight superior sheen on the highs.
I think we will see more of this WBer with traditional spaker assist in the future.
You know the live recording of Mahavishnu Central Park 1973, that we all cringe our ears when listening to,,,guess what, with these non coloring, no distortion wide bands, makes this recording enjoyable.
DavidLouis VX8 Full Range Bass test - YouTube
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Maybe to you, but that was the most 'gawdawful' mess of an orchestra recording I can recall ever being exposed to anywhere, so gave up within a minute, just skipping along to see if it got any better, and bass? What bass? Or even mid-bass for that matter! I can only guess you're referring to its 'dark', 'mushy' undertone in some sections, so if going to be a shill for the VX8, then at least use decent recordings.
I only have whatever audio is in a 6 yr old 17" HP Probook, so while listed as 'HD' it's hardly true 'HIFI', but enjoyable enough with decent online videos, so listened to these to make sure my system was functioning normally: Great White - Once Bitten Twice Shy (Official Video) - YouTube
All About That Bass - Postmodern Jukebox European Tour Version - YouTube.
That said, based on published specs, FR plot it should in theory sound pretty good and have good bass response down to Fs IF it has at least a 4 mm Xmax to easily handle 105+ dB/m/2pi sustains, transients, which typically isn't the case with audio driver esoterica.
I only have whatever audio is in a 6 yr old 17" HP Probook, so while listed as 'HD' it's hardly true 'HIFI', but enjoyable enough with decent online videos, so listened to these to make sure my system was functioning normally: Great White - Once Bitten Twice Shy (Official Video) - YouTube
All About That Bass - Postmodern Jukebox European Tour Version - YouTube.
That said, based on published specs, FR plot it should in theory sound pretty good and have good bass response down to Fs IF it has at least a 4 mm Xmax to easily handle 105+ dB/m/2pi sustains, transients, which typically isn't the case with audio driver esoterica.
Thanks, I think I am going to save a bit of money there...
Oon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Glad I could be of help,. Which was one of my objectives in making various purchases of wide band speakers.
For testing and bringing my test opinions to the general community. = saves you $$$$$ from testing which is which....
The Diatone is not even close to what the Tang Band2145 and DLVX8 bring to the music.
LII Fast 8, another dud.
DavidLouis Yellow Cone 6 Neo Dymium magnet = OK, but certainly not worth his $400 asking price. Why settle for less with the DavidLouis Yellow 6 when you can get his best , = the VX8.
I see his VX6, Interesting speaker, but not exactly same construct as the VX8.
For all purposes the only 2 WBers I know that might very well give AER's $5000-$10,000 WBers a run for their money, are the
Tang band2145
DavidLouis VX8.
Its my hunch both , in fact will outshoot the AER's in the bass dept.
I cpuld be wrong.
But then
$550 vs $5500.
I mean come on.
Is the AER's 10X's superior???
I seriously doubt it.
DLVX* meets Gatemouth Brown's GateSwings
Everything you hope for in a speaker, is here.
The Chicago, Berlin wide bands of 1929, now reborn in these TB2145 and DLVX8
Try to make it through the full 15 minutes.
DavidLouis VX8/Gatemouth Brown Gate Swings - YouTube
Oon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Glad I could be of help,. Which was one of my objectives in making various purchases of wide band speakers.
For testing and bringing my test opinions to the general community. = saves you $$$$$ from testing which is which....
The Diatone is not even close to what the Tang Band2145 and DLVX8 bring to the music.
LII Fast 8, another dud.
DavidLouis Yellow Cone 6 Neo Dymium magnet = OK, but certainly not worth his $400 asking price. Why settle for less with the DavidLouis Yellow 6 when you can get his best , = the VX8.
I see his VX6, Interesting speaker, but not exactly same construct as the VX8.
For all purposes the only 2 WBers I know that might very well give AER's $5000-$10,000 WBers a run for their money, are the
Tang band2145
DavidLouis VX8.
Its my hunch both , in fact will outshoot the AER's in the bass dept.
I cpuld be wrong.
But then
$550 vs $5500.
I mean come on.
Is the AER's 10X's superior???
I seriously doubt it.
DLVX* meets Gatemouth Brown's GateSwings
Everything you hope for in a speaker, is here.
The Chicago, Berlin wide bands of 1929, now reborn in these TB2145 and DLVX8
Try to make it through the full 15 minutes.
DavidLouis VX8/Gatemouth Brown Gate Swings - YouTube
DL VX8 Jacinetha on the cd
You can compare to my upload of the TB2145,
Both are so close.
Yet completely different builds... not sure how this is possible maybe others here can detect a dif.
You really can't go wrong with either.
maybe 1 day I will RE-ORDER the TB2145 and hang on to them for a week and do futher testing.
But I really don't like to ship back 2x's a product.
DavidLouis VX8 Jacinitha Vs Tang Band2145 - YouTube
You can compare to my upload of the TB2145,
Both are so close.
Yet completely different builds... not sure how this is possible maybe others here can detect a dif.
You really can't go wrong with either.
maybe 1 day I will RE-ORDER the TB2145 and hang on to them for a week and do futher testing.
But I really don't like to ship back 2x's a product.
DavidLouis VX8 Jacinitha Vs Tang Band2145 - YouTube
Most USA audiophiles
1) never heard a high tech wide band
2) have no interest to hear a wide band
3) think they know everything... that a box speaker is so much superior to a wide band,,,, so why even bother..
4) wide bands will never make a hit as they do in china where 99% of the audiophile community listen only to wide bands
vs USA 99% listen to only box low sens types.
1) never heard a high tech wide band
2) have no interest to hear a wide band
3) think they know everything... that a box speaker is so much superior to a wide band,,,, so why even bother..
4) wide bands will never make a hit as they do in china where 99% of the audiophile community listen only to wide bands
vs USA 99% listen to only box low sens types.
I don't like to rain on your parade, but in order:
1/ Neither have you really, at least based on what I've read of the units you've tried. That's not a reflection, purely an observation. They are all basically using decades-old design methods & materials.
2/ Possibly true.
3/ There are several points under this one. Some no doubt do. But I'm slightly mystified why you are describing a wideband drive unit as different to a 'box speaker'. You can use wideband drive units in boxes. You're doing that yourself. QED.
4/ Not entirely correct I'm afraid. The majority of listeners in China use multiway speakers; wideband drive units are a little more popular however than they tend to be in the west. The largest market by percentage interest however is Japan, where they have a significant (but not majority) following. Note that there are lower sensitivity wideband drive units available also -Jordan, some of TB's models, MA etc.
1/ Neither have you really, at least based on what I've read of the units you've tried. That's not a reflection, purely an observation. They are all basically using decades-old design methods & materials.
2/ Possibly true.
3/ There are several points under this one. Some no doubt do. But I'm slightly mystified why you are describing a wideband drive unit as different to a 'box speaker'. You can use wideband drive units in boxes. You're doing that yourself. QED.
4/ Not entirely correct I'm afraid. The majority of listeners in China use multiway speakers; wideband drive units are a little more popular however than they tend to be in the west. The largest market by percentage interest however is Japan, where they have a significant (but not majority) following. Note that there are lower sensitivity wideband drive units available also -Jordan, some of TB's models, MA etc.
1) well I do consider the newest TB2145 design to be highest tech avaliable
DavidLouis VX8 looks to be no more than a 3 yr old design = both newest latest wide band designs = The 2 21st C speakers on the market, best of it their class.
Which few USA audiophiles even know, or even care they even exist
2) Not possibly true,
Fact is
the USA audiophile is sold out on the low sens, Seas, Scan speak, Troels Gravesen, Wilson, Thiel, Vandersteens, Magnepan etc type things.
They have no interest whatsoever, Not ever ever ,,,well it will take another audiophile gen to at least consider WB technology as speakers of choice = 50 yrs from now.
3)WEll I use the acronymn *the box speaker*.
as dumping the whole A-Z, xover low sens (90 below) in this category,
These low sens are handicaped when heard next toa high sens (91+db) wide band.
I AHTE open baffel, So yes I use box, but not xover /low sens, My Thor W18's and paper tweeter are only employed in assist mode = emblish=ments.
Nothing more.
4) I am guessing here. My ebay seller mentioned the china/asian audiophile likes his Wide Bands,
= 50%+ employ wide bands.
The JBL's, QAdvents, Wlilsons , some make their way via the used market in asia, but only as itens of curiosity.
Once they find out the chinese wide band is so much more musical, they dump the big box things.
And yes, there are WBers with low sens, below 90db.
I do not consider these new high tech/high fidelity speakers for a 21st C audiophile.
I think anything below 92db sens, is not true wide band.
I've not heard AER's super high sens wide bands.
hard to say how the AER's shootout next to the DLVX* and TB2145.
Might be superior, might be inferior.
The Voxativ AC1A's are inferior to both chinese WBers.
I doubt any Voxativ can match either chinese WBer, not even a close shootout.
I lost $1k dumping my AC1A's on the market.
50% of my cash investment, believing everything Vox says about their speakers.
Now I can't trust AER either.
Both are in germany. I believe the chinese designs smash both german labs ina shootout.
Other than the TB2145, DLVX8, I have no idea what other WBers exist that can match these 2 inn terms of high fidelity.
The USA audiophile's low sens speakers , are not high fidelity, These Wilsons, etc etc are low fidelity = trash, only good as emblishments, Nada mas.
DavidLouis VX8 looks to be no more than a 3 yr old design = both newest latest wide band designs = The 2 21st C speakers on the market, best of it their class.
Which few USA audiophiles even know, or even care they even exist
2) Not possibly true,
Fact is
the USA audiophile is sold out on the low sens, Seas, Scan speak, Troels Gravesen, Wilson, Thiel, Vandersteens, Magnepan etc type things.
They have no interest whatsoever, Not ever ever ,,,well it will take another audiophile gen to at least consider WB technology as speakers of choice = 50 yrs from now.
3)WEll I use the acronymn *the box speaker*.
as dumping the whole A-Z, xover low sens (90 below) in this category,
These low sens are handicaped when heard next toa high sens (91+db) wide band.
I AHTE open baffel, So yes I use box, but not xover /low sens, My Thor W18's and paper tweeter are only employed in assist mode = emblish=ments.
Nothing more.
4) I am guessing here. My ebay seller mentioned the china/asian audiophile likes his Wide Bands,
= 50%+ employ wide bands.
The JBL's, QAdvents, Wlilsons , some make their way via the used market in asia, but only as itens of curiosity.
Once they find out the chinese wide band is so much more musical, they dump the big box things.
And yes, there are WBers with low sens, below 90db.
I do not consider these new high tech/high fidelity speakers for a 21st C audiophile.
I think anything below 92db sens, is not true wide band.
I've not heard AER's super high sens wide bands.
hard to say how the AER's shootout next to the DLVX* and TB2145.
Might be superior, might be inferior.
The Voxativ AC1A's are inferior to both chinese WBers.
I doubt any Voxativ can match either chinese WBer, not even a close shootout.
I lost $1k dumping my AC1A's on the market.
50% of my cash investment, believing everything Vox says about their speakers.
Now I can't trust AER either.
Both are in germany. I believe the chinese designs smash both german labs ina shootout.
Other than the TB2145, DLVX8, I have no idea what other WBers exist that can match these 2 inn terms of high fidelity.
The USA audiophile's low sens speakers , are not high fidelity, These Wilsons, etc etc are low fidelity = trash, only good as emblishments, Nada mas.
OK, since I'm laid up after my heart went haywire for the second time in a week, I'll try to distill something concise from the above. I'll try to deal exclusively with fact, rather than opinion.
Going through in order:
1/ I realise you consider that, but the factual reality is that whizzer cone wideband drive units are decades old (as in from the 1940s). There is nothing technically advanced about either of the units you describe in terms of new engineering developments, or manufacturing method.
2/ That's why I say, possibly true: many are not. Some are however, as you can see from this forum (or when you look in the mirror).
3/ OK, you are using the term 'box speaker' to refer to multiway designs which may, or may not, be low sensitivity. That isn't want most people would describe as a 'box speaker' to be though. Most people tend to use that term to refer to a loudspeaker with a drive unit or drive units of any kind mounted in a box.
4/ I'm not as I see quite a few sales figures from various regions. Big vintage (and modern) Tannoys, Altecs, JBLs etc. have a major following in Japan in particular, and they certainly do not dump them for cheap Chinese wideband drive units. Wideband units, taken in general, have a following, but they are rarely used as subsitutes for such speakers, having their own fan-base, or used alongside as an alternative.
As a general note, I'd be careful not to conflate bandwidth with efficiency (or sensitivity). They are not the same thing, and you can have examples of both low and high efficiency drive units with a wide bandwith.
Going through in order:
1/ I realise you consider that, but the factual reality is that whizzer cone wideband drive units are decades old (as in from the 1940s). There is nothing technically advanced about either of the units you describe in terms of new engineering developments, or manufacturing method.
2/ That's why I say, possibly true: many are not. Some are however, as you can see from this forum (or when you look in the mirror).
3/ OK, you are using the term 'box speaker' to refer to multiway designs which may, or may not, be low sensitivity. That isn't want most people would describe as a 'box speaker' to be though. Most people tend to use that term to refer to a loudspeaker with a drive unit or drive units of any kind mounted in a box.
4/ I'm not
as I see quite a few sales figures from various regions. Big vintage (and modern) Tannoys, Altecs, JBLs etc. have a major following in Japan in particular, and they certainly do not dump them for cheap Chinese wideband drive units. Wideband units, taken in general, have a following, but they are rarely used as subsitutes for such speakers, having their own fan-base, or used alongside as an alternative. As a general note, I'd be careful not to conflate bandwidth with efficiency (or sensitivity). They are not the same thing, and you can have examples of both low and high efficiency drive units with a wide bandwith.