..as full ranger driver 'helpers', pros and cons.
Wd really like to add a little sparkle to my otherwise excellent Alpair 10P based speakers.
(Or rebuild as a classic 2 way?)
curious to people's views on super tweeters, wd they mess up frequency response or is there a way to position a super tweet, say rear firing, up firing or Omni etc
Wd really like to add a little sparkle to my otherwise excellent Alpair 10P based speakers.
(Or rebuild as a classic 2 way?)
curious to people's views on super tweeters, wd they mess up frequency response or is there a way to position a super tweet, say rear firing, up firing or Omni etc
Just time align them (which means they are phase aligned as well, doesn't work the other way around) and there won't be a "mess up frequency response". Unless of course your low and high pass filters are way off in regards to each other.
Rear, up, sideways, in the kitchen: alignment is out the window but you might like it better. It's easy to try.
Rear, up, sideways, in the kitchen: alignment is out the window but you might like it better. It's easy to try.
No.
Depends how you implement. If you just tack it on, you will end up with some cancellation nulls due to the differing phase-angles at the listening position -how much, and where depending on the specifics of implementation & axis.
They do, in all such implementations. However, they also usually do the job intended which is to extend the HF & usually provide a bit more output. Since > 10KHz we're mostly dealing with harmonics, and our hearing tends to key off the peaks, some unevenness is not always a major problem for many, the extra HF output, even if a bit variable, giving a desired impression of more 'air' / whatever you want to call it.
Technically speaking a better solution, although usually taking rather more design work.
In all these implementations, full 2-way, or capped off 1.5way you will likely run into the issue of a high XO frequency relative to the C2C spacing. So your polars may go a bit dodgy. In the critical hearing BW, that may (may) be more problematic for tonality, but as you move higher -possibly less so. A somewhat more even corruption with a rear-firing may help there also; we're into a similar realm as slot-loading (albeit distantly) on that front where you may end up creating a more or less dense comb filter effect that looks jagged but in practice tends to average out over a reasonably wide axis.
What is your definition of supertweeter?
To me, supertweeter is something that goes well above 20khz. Btw, supertweeters were big question some time ago when SACD and DVD-A formats were launched.
If you just wish to "reinforce" last octave of your fullrange driver in order to get more details and better dispersion any deacent tweeter should do the job.
I have experience with supertweeters beacuse first speakers I made had horn supertweeters with 40khz range, so I got phono cartridge with 55khz range and fine stylus profile to match. Some of my records had really amazing details, airness and soundstage. CD wasnt even close.
But, I was in my early 20s, when you can hear highest frequencies.
Now, I cant hear above 15khz and prefer moderate level listening, so my current speakers are fullrange with Seas FA22RCZ. Sound is really excellent. Soundstage and details are not on the same level compared to fine multiway speakers, but difference is really negligible and much smaller than I expected.
So I really dont see the point of adding anything to them.
To me, supertweeter is something that goes well above 20khz. Btw, supertweeters were big question some time ago when SACD and DVD-A formats were launched.
If you just wish to "reinforce" last octave of your fullrange driver in order to get more details and better dispersion any deacent tweeter should do the job.
I have experience with supertweeters beacuse first speakers I made had horn supertweeters with 40khz range, so I got phono cartridge with 55khz range and fine stylus profile to match. Some of my records had really amazing details, airness and soundstage. CD wasnt even close.
But, I was in my early 20s, when you can hear highest frequencies.
Now, I cant hear above 15khz and prefer moderate level listening, so my current speakers are fullrange with Seas FA22RCZ. Sound is really excellent. Soundstage and details are not on the same level compared to fine multiway speakers, but difference is really negligible and much smaller than I expected.
So I really dont see the point of adding anything to them.
i bought fostex T90A from my friend just because he offered very good price for $360/pair. installed it on my audionirvana classic 8 and it gives an extra airy/sparkle. i really like it
went to diy senior >60yrs old and install it on his fostex 206 which i consider darker than AN, for sure it really add more airy too. even my senior friend mentioned noticeable differences.
when i remove supertweeter from fullrange driver, something is missing but longer you listen to FR driver then the ears will adjust and no more complain
notes: my friend tested his ears and the graph shows he started loosing above 10kHz, but he still can enjoy the benefit of supertweeter
went to diy senior >60yrs old and install it on his fostex 206 which i consider darker than AN, for sure it really add more airy too. even my senior friend mentioned noticeable differences.
when i remove supertweeter from fullrange driver, something is missing but longer you listen to FR driver then the ears will adjust and no more complain
notes: my friend tested his ears and the graph shows he started loosing above 10kHz, but he still can enjoy the benefit of supertweeter
supertweeters can help with fullrange drivers that miss something on the top, and those are mainly older type big drivers. But i don't like it, it takes away the fullrange experience. That's why i tend to use smaller ones, and why i like Mark Audio drivers so much. They don't need it as the higher frequencies are there, and still the driver gives a lot of bass and due to the shallow cones, they dispertion is also good enough to not need supertweeters.
But with AN drivers and some others, i can see why they are usefull.
But at the end, whatever works for you is good for you i think. There are no absolute rules on this, only preferences.
But with AN drivers and some others, i can see why they are usefull.
But at the end, whatever works for you is good for you i think. There are no absolute rules on this, only preferences.
OK, 'bite'/'pierce' is centered at ~10 kHz, 'air'/~18 kHz, so XO ~ 8 kHz: Interactive Frequency Chart from Independent Recording Network
Hi,
May i share my experience with supertweeter?
It was not with a fullrange but with big high efficiency ( 2x12" and horn mtm) 2 way i already knew and liked.
We were a group most of the guys were 'trained listeners'. First reaction of most people was about the sparkle, air, etc,etc,...
We were two not saying anything about high freq but we both had a feeling the scene was deeper ( more depth on z axis) and the lows gained in tigthness and better localization at plain center of image.
Of course most of the crowd had a laugh but not the designer of the system. We had a chat and he told us that we weren't crazy and some people had same feeling than us. Then he talked about bias expectation... the gain high freq brought about transient definition and the way our brain integrate envelope.
It was something like 10/15years ago and i was in my early 30's ( still heard 18khz at the time). I wonder if i would have the same feelings now.
Supertweeter was a Townsend unit ( ribbon) iirc.
May i share my experience with supertweeter?
It was not with a fullrange but with big high efficiency ( 2x12" and horn mtm) 2 way i already knew and liked.
We were a group most of the guys were 'trained listeners'. First reaction of most people was about the sparkle, air, etc,etc,...
We were two not saying anything about high freq but we both had a feeling the scene was deeper ( more depth on z axis) and the lows gained in tigthness and better localization at plain center of image.
Of course most of the crowd had a laugh but not the designer of the system. We had a chat and he told us that we weren't crazy and some people had same feeling than us. Then he talked about bias expectation... the gain high freq brought about transient definition and the way our brain integrate envelope.
It was something like 10/15years ago and i was in my early 30's ( still heard 18khz at the time). I wonder if i would have the same feelings now.
Supertweeter was a Townsend unit ( ribbon) iirc.
What you seems to forget is that most adults (read 99%) don't hear above 15kHz, and even most babies don't go above 18kHz. So even if there is sound there, we don't hear it.
I'm called exceptional on this as my hearing is at age 40 (i'm now 42) measured as hearing to 16749Hz by the Universaty of Ghent who study my hearing since i was a child. it declined also, but i started very high. I complained about the CRT TV that resonated at 25kHz and hurted my ears as 3 years old todler, that's how they started measuring. And even after 20 years of being a dj and 10 years as sound engineer i still got a much sharper hearing than most, i hear very silent sounds and very high frequencies, which is very annoying, i can assure you. Especially when you live in an old beaten-up flat in a busy noisy city like i did until 5 years ago.
But most of you won't hear past 15kHz, and older people even not past 12kHz, so don't let yourself fooled with supertweeters for above 20kHz, they are not hearable, not even by most children.
I'm called exceptional on this as my hearing is at age 40 (i'm now 42) measured as hearing to 16749Hz by the Universaty of Ghent who study my hearing since i was a child. it declined also, but i started very high. I complained about the CRT TV that resonated at 25kHz and hurted my ears as 3 years old todler, that's how they started measuring. And even after 20 years of being a dj and 10 years as sound engineer i still got a much sharper hearing than most, i hear very silent sounds and very high frequencies, which is very annoying, i can assure you. Especially when you live in an old beaten-up flat in a busy noisy city like i did until 5 years ago.
But most of you won't hear past 15kHz, and older people even not past 12kHz, so don't let yourself fooled with supertweeters for above 20kHz, they are not hearable, not even by most children.
Waxx you are lucky! I'm 44 and last time i checked i was ok to 13khz with 20y of sound engineering and 10y djing.
That said what i heard wasn't with high bandwidth signals, regular redbook cd.
To me it seems to have a supertweet render attack/transient in a different way than a regular tweeter: maybe this is harmonics related i don't know.
That said what i heard wasn't with high bandwidth signals, regular redbook cd.
To me it seems to have a supertweet render attack/transient in a different way than a regular tweeter: maybe this is harmonics related i don't know.
You're welcome! Up to a point we can perceive this HF extension as a 'fuller' bass - up into the mid-range if there's content out to the limits of the recording and per the chart you can hear it as increased sibilance, which with my tinnitus I need a dip where many folks want a boost and why many drivers come with it 'voiced' in [or at least use to].
There's a couple of projects by Mike Chua that might interest you:
A Markaudio CHP-70 with a tweeter:
https://ampslab.com/blog/2020/04/28/wren-ii/
And a Peerless near fullranger with a first order tweeter:
Swallow – a Time and Phase Coherent Satellite – AmpsLab
Mike will send you the circuits if you email him. Should be interesting anyway.
A Markaudio CHP-70 with a tweeter:
https://ampslab.com/blog/2020/04/28/wren-ii/
And a Peerless near fullranger with a first order tweeter:
Swallow – a Time and Phase Coherent Satellite – AmpsLab
Mike will send you the circuits if you email him. Should be interesting anyway.
Thanks interesting read
There's that decision whether leaving the full range crossoverless or adding an inductor