So I've been getting into the DIY speaker hobby, and I'm currently planning for a Troels Gravesen The-Loudspeaker-III build. Also building as Tubelab SSE amp to compliment these.
I've always liked the idea of fullrange speakers, but browsing the forum on here left me with more questions than answers. I wonder whether going fullrange instead of multi-way would perhaps fit my needs better. Hopefully, some of you might help me!
I have a fairly small room, as you can see here. The two red rectangles are where the speakers would be placed. The speakers will be used strictly for music listening. On the wall opposite the speakers are a row of bookshelves (full of books, covering all of the wall) and a door covered with a damping curtain.
What I'm looking for in a speaker is a details across the range, clean and detailed bass especially, and lots of dynamics. I listen to some bass heavy music genres (techno, house, on the experimental side of things), lots of electronic music, and jazz, krautrock and the likes.
I'd like the speakers to be great low volume performer.
Would going fullrange be a good option for my use case? Budget and size of speakers is not an issue at all (I'd love to get very big cabinets with room for design choices). I'm willing to go up to 2500euros if it means getting something amazing that I won't feel like upgrading after two months.
EDIT: I'm concerned about directionality as well, I'd like the speakers to fill the room instead of having one precise sweet spot. So, perhaps a nice horn-loaded setup?
I've always liked the idea of fullrange speakers, but browsing the forum on here left me with more questions than answers. I wonder whether going fullrange instead of multi-way would perhaps fit my needs better. Hopefully, some of you might help me!
I have a fairly small room, as you can see here. The two red rectangles are where the speakers would be placed. The speakers will be used strictly for music listening. On the wall opposite the speakers are a row of bookshelves (full of books, covering all of the wall) and a door covered with a damping curtain.
What I'm looking for in a speaker is a details across the range, clean and detailed bass especially, and lots of dynamics. I listen to some bass heavy music genres (techno, house, on the experimental side of things), lots of electronic music, and jazz, krautrock and the likes.
I'd like the speakers to be great low volume performer.
Would going fullrange be a good option for my use case? Budget and size of speakers is not an issue at all (I'd love to get very big cabinets with room for design choices). I'm willing to go up to 2500euros if it means getting something amazing that I won't feel like upgrading after two months.
EDIT: I'm concerned about directionality as well, I'd like the speakers to fill the room instead of having one precise sweet spot. So, perhaps a nice horn-loaded setup?
The Loudspeaker-III ain't no fullrange...
If budget and size are no limit for a full-range driver you would probably end up with something link these beauties: The Spawn Family of Double Horns. No doubt they would sound awesome for music.
If budget and size are no limit for a full-range driver you would probably end up with something link these beauties: The Spawn Family of Double Horns. No doubt they would sound awesome for music.
I know these aren't fullrange speakers. I was just wondering whether, based on my requirements, it would be worth my while (and money) to go down the fullrange route instead of The-Loudspeaker-III. I love the look of some of these fullrangers.
Thanks for the link, I'll check this one out!
Very few can do that, Mark Audio is what I use, and I listen a lot to dub. It got the low MMS, enough xmax and high quality of build to fit the music you want to play. I like of those i know most the Mark Audio Alpair 10.3M, but recently I build an MLTL (own design) with the CHN110, and that does it also, almost as good. But both not on high volume (+100dB). Probally the best way to do this (in my experience) is an MLTL.
Most others i know (Fostex, Tang Band, Faital, Lowter, Audio Nirvana) don't do the bass thing right. They often lack xmax and have a too high FS to go real low for this purpose.
Using a subwoofer with it (a so called Woofer Assisted Wideband) can also be a solution. That is using a fullrange driver for all above 200-400Hz, and below use a woofer. I did that also with that Mark Audio 10.3 (above 250Hz) and a Scanspeak 10" 26W8534G00 woofer wich was is a very combo. And then you have a bigger choice of drivers that you can use.
Most others i know (Fostex, Tang Band, Faital, Lowter, Audio Nirvana) don't do the bass thing right. They often lack xmax and have a too high FS to go real low for this purpose.
Using a subwoofer with it (a so called Woofer Assisted Wideband) can also be a solution. That is using a fullrange driver for all above 200-400Hz, and below use a woofer. I did that also with that Mark Audio 10.3 (above 250Hz) and a Scanspeak 10" 26W8534G00 woofer wich was is a very combo. And then you have a bigger choice of drivers that you can use.
If you are looking for fullrange speakers with decent bass (at lower volume) and a lot of detail, these is a design i can recommend for a small room.
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil103-plan-300114.pdf
I did help build this for a friend, who is a deephouse dj, a few years ago. This is for his living room in his appartment in Geneva (Swiss) and gives a good bass to a bit below 40Hz on a not to high volume. He uses a Luxman 509 to drive it. It replaced a pair of Sonus Faber floorstanders and did sound better we (including his wife) found. In his studio he uses ATC monitors.
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil103-plan-300114.pdf
I did help build this for a friend, who is a deephouse dj, a few years ago. This is for his living room in his appartment in Geneva (Swiss) and gives a good bass to a bit below 40Hz on a not to high volume. He uses a Luxman 509 to drive it. It replaced a pair of Sonus Faber floorstanders and did sound better we (including his wife) found. In his studio he uses ATC monitors.
Hi Calmant
I was in the same position as you when I first wandered into the DIYAudio forum over ten years ago looking for help with a problematic tube amp I was experimenting with for the first time.
I listen to a lot the music you enjoy...especially downtempo and jazz.
I have a modest size living room to listen in as well (14 x20 feet).
I discovered the many threads devoted to full range designs and became enamored with the back and front loaded horn designs.
After having poured over various speaker designs on different websites I had decided that crossover design on multiway speakers was too much to take on.
I almost immediately bought a pair of Fostex 206e drivers from Madisound.
Unfortunately, they sat in a closet for a long time because I couldn’t find the time and motivation to build one of the complex back loaded horns.
Eventually, I found a pair of used Oris 200 front horns and managed to get them together with the Fostex.
It took a long time to get to the point where I had something I could listen to.
I ended up having to use a subwoofer and also experiment with a slot loaded mid bass solution.
I also experimented with Lowther and Tang Band drivers in the horns.
The qualities of the horns and drivers I really enjoyed was their point source high efficiency and how much detail could be heard.
However, because of the listening space there was a very small sweet spot.
I rationalized it didn’t matter because I was the only one listening to the system.
Recently, one horn was knocked over and damaged. I was upset and didn’t want to even look at them. So I took them down and stored them away.
I had nothing working that I could listen to except an old pair of KEF 104/2 that hadn’t worked well in the past with my low power DIY amps.
I had an open baffle project I had attempted...but was unhappy with.
I decided to take another shot at the OB project and refitted it with the Tang Band W8 1808 drivers I had tried in the front horns. The bass driver is a used AE dipole 15.
The results were incredibly different than my first failed attempt.
The OB made me even more aware of the beaming I had been living with while using the front horns with the 8 inch fullranges.
The sound fills the room and the bass is undistorted. I still use my Jamo subwoofer for the very bottom end below 75 Hz, but I find I have to turn its level down very low to avoid it sounding boomy.
The Tang Band in this OB do not give me the details I enjoyed listening to jazz on my front horns. However, they do provide enough to enjoy the music and I no longer feel like my head is in a vise during listening.
So my long winded rant is simply to share with you some of the pitfalls of the different paths you mention and might try in your smaller space.
My current goal is to try and put together a synergy/unity style horn that will have better dispersion in the room and maintain the efficiency and point source nature that I enjoyed with the full range drivers in the past.
I was in the same position as you when I first wandered into the DIYAudio forum over ten years ago looking for help with a problematic tube amp I was experimenting with for the first time.
I listen to a lot the music you enjoy...especially downtempo and jazz.
I have a modest size living room to listen in as well (14 x20 feet).
I discovered the many threads devoted to full range designs and became enamored with the back and front loaded horn designs.
After having poured over various speaker designs on different websites I had decided that crossover design on multiway speakers was too much to take on.
I almost immediately bought a pair of Fostex 206e drivers from Madisound.
Unfortunately, they sat in a closet for a long time because I couldn’t find the time and motivation to build one of the complex back loaded horns.
Eventually, I found a pair of used Oris 200 front horns and managed to get them together with the Fostex.
It took a long time to get to the point where I had something I could listen to.
I ended up having to use a subwoofer and also experiment with a slot loaded mid bass solution.
I also experimented with Lowther and Tang Band drivers in the horns.
The qualities of the horns and drivers I really enjoyed was their point source high efficiency and how much detail could be heard.
However, because of the listening space there was a very small sweet spot.
I rationalized it didn’t matter because I was the only one listening to the system.
Recently, one horn was knocked over and damaged. I was upset and didn’t want to even look at them. So I took them down and stored them away.
I had nothing working that I could listen to except an old pair of KEF 104/2 that hadn’t worked well in the past with my low power DIY amps.
I had an open baffle project I had attempted...but was unhappy with.
I decided to take another shot at the OB project and refitted it with the Tang Band W8 1808 drivers I had tried in the front horns. The bass driver is a used AE dipole 15.
The results were incredibly different than my first failed attempt.
The OB made me even more aware of the beaming I had been living with while using the front horns with the 8 inch fullranges.
The sound fills the room and the bass is undistorted. I still use my Jamo subwoofer for the very bottom end below 75 Hz, but I find I have to turn its level down very low to avoid it sounding boomy.
The Tang Band in this OB do not give me the details I enjoyed listening to jazz on my front horns. However, they do provide enough to enjoy the music and I no longer feel like my head is in a vise during listening.
So my long winded rant is simply to share with you some of the pitfalls of the different paths you mention and might try in your smaller space.
My current goal is to try and put together a synergy/unity style horn that will have better dispersion in the room and maintain the efficiency and point source nature that I enjoyed with the full range drivers in the past.
Attachments
Thanks for the heads-up, I listen to a lot of deep house, I'll look into this!
I've found this post in the fullrange speakers gallery.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/65061-range-speaker-photo-gallery-333.html#post4422275
I really like their look, and OP mentions the -3db being at 35Hz.
I wonder if this kind of enclosure is common? That's very much in the ballpark of what I'd like my speakers to look like.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/65061-range-speaker-photo-gallery-333.html#post4422275
I really like their look, and OP mentions the -3db being at 35Hz.
I wonder if this kind of enclosure is common? That's very much in the ballpark of what I'd like my speakers to look like.
A transmission line is common, but mostly they are not that wide. MLTL's like the Pencil or TWQT's are also two types of transmission line. The Jordan speaker there is not bad, but too expensive for what it is i think. I did not measure the Pencil i linked, but by listening to it i guess it's in the same region of F3 i think as that one. And my MLTL (i don't have drawn plans yet) with the CHN110 goes also that low.
In general you can push a TL a bit lower than a reflex with the same speaker, but not that much. The main advantage is the group delay that is a lot shorter (so a more accurate timing) with a TL than with a reflex.
In general you can push a TL a bit lower than a reflex with the same speaker, but not that much. The main advantage is the group delay that is a lot shorter (so a more accurate timing) with a TL than with a reflex.
Hi,
Most fullrange drivers will, depending on their size mainly, be more directive than a multi-way system. I think the non-symmetrical listening position you showed in your room sketch is not that good... even with small FR drivers, it´s most likely that you´re out of the sweet spot.
Try to realize a somewhat more symmetrical listening position, even if that´ll mean you´re sitting very close to the speakers, let´s say a triangle of 1,5 meters. That would lead to a very nearfield listening position, and your chance of a very detailed sound has become bigger. And now a fullrange driver is even more important to have, due to the nearfield...
A good FR based speaker correctly implemented can, even in the nearfield, totally disappear acoustically and just leaves you with a 3-dimensional musical illusion, which seems to have nothing to do with the speakers. Of course, the rest of your system should be on par, too...
All the best
Mattes
Most fullrange drivers will, depending on their size mainly, be more directive than a multi-way system. I think the non-symmetrical listening position you showed in your room sketch is not that good... even with small FR drivers, it´s most likely that you´re out of the sweet spot.
Try to realize a somewhat more symmetrical listening position, even if that´ll mean you´re sitting very close to the speakers, let´s say a triangle of 1,5 meters. That would lead to a very nearfield listening position, and your chance of a very detailed sound has become bigger. And now a fullrange driver is even more important to have, due to the nearfield...
A good FR based speaker correctly implemented can, even in the nearfield, totally disappear acoustically and just leaves you with a 3-dimensional musical illusion, which seems to have nothing to do with the speakers. Of course, the rest of your system should be on par, too...
All the best
Mattes
Calmant,
Mattes makes a good point about listening position, however you also expressed a desire to have the speakers sound good anywhere in the room. Typically this means you want omnis. However, then your "sweet spot" is less sweet.
I recommend a design that incorporates both directional and omni-directional elements. For example, I have happily lived with my Planet-10 microTowers for many years and just recently upgraded the drivers in them. In the plan set, you can see they are intended for MarkAudio CHR-70 or CSS EL70. I originally built them with dual EL70 drivers in the "Castle" configuration (see attached). I've recently upgraded the drivers to MarkAudio Pluvia 7.2 HD, and these speakers have been transformed from very good to magnificent.
The Castle configuration allows for great "sweet spot" listening (these drivers have extremely good dispersion / low beaming) but also provide room-filling stereo sound. They sound excellent when standing right between them, or in the normal sitting position, or when standing or walking around in the room. Even when I am 10 meters away, in the kitchen, they sound great.
Bass response with 2 4 inch drivers in these MLTL cabinets goes easily to 40Hz with decent capability into the mid-30s.
They are nearly perfect speakers, for my needs. The one caveat is that they can only do all of this at moderate SPL. What I mean by "moderate" is SPL peaks into the mid to high 90s. At this volume level, it is basically impossible to have a conversation. People must yell to be heard. If you need your speakers to be louder than that, then most full range drivers are not for you. Also, I would caution you about cumulative learning loss. Although, you've stated that you want to mostly listen at lower volume levels so this will not be an issue at all, in my opinion.
I am 100% positive someone will be along shortly to say that it is impossible for fullrange drivers to produce good bass, and that a subwoofer is absolutely necessary. I firmly disagree. When used for typical living room at low to moderate SPL, full range drivers can (and do) cover the full range and can sound fantastic doing so.
EDIT: I drive mine with a Tubelab SSE, and they are a perfect match. The Pluvia 7.2HD impedance curve is extremely easy for the SSE to drive.
Mattes makes a good point about listening position, however you also expressed a desire to have the speakers sound good anywhere in the room. Typically this means you want omnis. However, then your "sweet spot" is less sweet.
I recommend a design that incorporates both directional and omni-directional elements. For example, I have happily lived with my Planet-10 microTowers for many years and just recently upgraded the drivers in them. In the plan set, you can see they are intended for MarkAudio CHR-70 or CSS EL70. I originally built them with dual EL70 drivers in the "Castle" configuration (see attached). I've recently upgraded the drivers to MarkAudio Pluvia 7.2 HD, and these speakers have been transformed from very good to magnificent.
The Castle configuration allows for great "sweet spot" listening (these drivers have extremely good dispersion / low beaming) but also provide room-filling stereo sound. They sound excellent when standing right between them, or in the normal sitting position, or when standing or walking around in the room. Even when I am 10 meters away, in the kitchen, they sound great.
Bass response with 2 4 inch drivers in these MLTL cabinets goes easily to 40Hz with decent capability into the mid-30s.
They are nearly perfect speakers, for my needs. The one caveat is that they can only do all of this at moderate SPL. What I mean by "moderate" is SPL peaks into the mid to high 90s. At this volume level, it is basically impossible to have a conversation. People must yell to be heard. If you need your speakers to be louder than that, then most full range drivers are not for you. Also, I would caution you about cumulative learning loss. Although, you've stated that you want to mostly listen at lower volume levels so this will not be an issue at all, in my opinion.
I am 100% positive someone will be along shortly to say that it is impossible for fullrange drivers to produce good bass, and that a subwoofer is absolutely necessary. I firmly disagree. When used for typical living room at low to moderate SPL, full range drivers can (and do) cover the full range and can sound fantastic doing so.
EDIT: I drive mine with a Tubelab SSE, and they are a perfect match. The Pluvia 7.2HD impedance curve is extremely easy for the SSE to drive.
Attachments
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Cogitech (or others),
Inspired by Cogitech's experience with the Castle upgrade to Pluvia 7HD, What is good starting point for amount of stuffing? The two drivers are wired in series? Parallel? Thoughts on the top aiming towards the back wall at 45 degrees?
Pete
Pete, I’ve built a few pairs* of speakers based on the “Castle” configuration, and found that a forward facing slant of 10dg worked best for the several rooms they now occupy.
*my daily driver in upstairs room is actually a 2-way MTM variant, using a pair of late CSS VWR126 and Mark Audio soft dome tweeter, powered by Neurochrome Modulus 286. The passive XO was designed by a 3rd party who has done at least 4 circuits for me over the past ~20years, all of with which I’ve been very satisfied.
Others were the original two pairs showcased on DaveD’s website: CSS EL70(bipole), CHR70 Castle with flat top, plus CHN70, CHBW70s/ ERT26 - the latter 2 both with forward angled top.
*my daily driver in upstairs room is actually a 2-way MTM variant, using a pair of late CSS VWR126 and Mark Audio soft dome tweeter, powered by Neurochrome Modulus 286. The passive XO was designed by a 3rd party who has done at least 4 circuits for me over the past ~20years, all of with which I’ve been very satisfied.
Others were the original two pairs showcased on DaveD’s website: CSS EL70(bipole), CHR70 Castle with flat top, plus CHN70, CHBW70s/ ERT26 - the latter 2 both with forward angled top.