With a full range, we are forced to sacrifice to some extent on both ends. OK. My question is for smaller drivers, FE85, RS100 etc, where we are pushing our luck to get down in frequency. To achieve a subjective overall balance, how much hump before LF roll-off do folks prefer, and how much early roll-off on the top? How much does it vary as you do push lower?
I ask as I have seen diligent efforts and done so myself to get 80 to 15K or so quite flat, but they sounded like crap as desktops. Measured several micro-speakers, ( Warfdale, RS, and no-name) All had quite high Q alignment and early roll-off even though they all had tweeters.
I ask as I have seen diligent efforts and done so myself to get 80 to 15K or so quite flat, but they sounded like crap as desktops. Measured several micro-speakers, ( Warfdale, RS, and no-name) All had quite high Q alignment and early roll-off even though they all had tweeters.
I think many would agree if you really wanted to go truly full range as what you would get from a typical 2 or 3 commercial speaker, the only way is to go WAW or FAST...
With regards to treble, I think many people interpret the results wrongly. IMHO, what people really care is not how high the extension of the treble is, rather how the driver handle low level signals. If you look at most recording, the low level treble, the brush on the high hats of the drums, the triangle, is in fact 20-30 db below the main signal. Therefore if you listen to 1 watt music, you are really listening to 1-10mW for treble.
Given that many full range are fairly efficient, therefore we are listening to way below 1 watt. If you have compression drivers, you could be looking at uW. So those frequency response graph do not represent how the tweeters will eventually sound like.
If you wanted a decent treble equivalent to what you expect out of tweeter, your driver should not be more than 3 or 4 inch...
Oon
With regards to treble, I think many people interpret the results wrongly. IMHO, what people really care is not how high the extension of the treble is, rather how the driver handle low level signals. If you look at most recording, the low level treble, the brush on the high hats of the drums, the triangle, is in fact 20-30 db below the main signal. Therefore if you listen to 1 watt music, you are really listening to 1-10mW for treble.
Given that many full range are fairly efficient, therefore we are listening to way below 1 watt. If you have compression drivers, you could be looking at uW. So those frequency response graph do not represent how the tweeters will eventually sound like.
If you wanted a decent treble equivalent to what you expect out of tweeter, your driver should not be more than 3 or 4 inch...
Oon
Use alignments that actually provide acoustic gain for the bass, then less cone movement is needed and distortion at bass frequencies is reduced.
Very few speakers give actual gain at bass frequencies - in fact, only back loaded horn speakers, and the Karlsonator are about the only ones that come to mind. The Cornu is perhaps the one with the most gain - it is so high in fact, that it has to be attenuated with stuffing in the channels to reduce the relative bass.
Normal speakers like bass reflex, sealed, MLTL, etc all have baffle step loss circa -5dB to -6dB from nominal rating. So for a balanced sound, subtract 5dB from the driver rating for what the overall speaker sensitivity is at circa 50Hz to 100Hz.
What this says is that for drivers of typical 86dB, they are only going to be about 81dB sensitive at 100Hz. If they were BLH's, they might be 86dB or even 92dB in the case of the Cornu.
I rarely listen to single driver full range anymore - but the one that does have balanced bass is a 0.53x Karlsonator with a single PA130-8. It makes bass down to about 60Hz that is similar in sensitivity to what it is at 1kHz.
I also use dual 3FE25-16's in parallel and that is balanced as well in a 0.53x Karlsonator - no BSC needed.
Very few speakers give actual gain at bass frequencies - in fact, only back loaded horn speakers, and the Karlsonator are about the only ones that come to mind. The Cornu is perhaps the one with the most gain - it is so high in fact, that it has to be attenuated with stuffing in the channels to reduce the relative bass.
Normal speakers like bass reflex, sealed, MLTL, etc all have baffle step loss circa -5dB to -6dB from nominal rating. So for a balanced sound, subtract 5dB from the driver rating for what the overall speaker sensitivity is at circa 50Hz to 100Hz.
What this says is that for drivers of typical 86dB, they are only going to be about 81dB sensitive at 100Hz. If they were BLH's, they might be 86dB or even 92dB in the case of the Cornu.
I rarely listen to single driver full range anymore - but the one that does have balanced bass is a 0.53x Karlsonator with a single PA130-8. It makes bass down to about 60Hz that is similar in sensitivity to what it is at 1kHz.
I also use dual 3FE25-16's in parallel and that is balanced as well in a 0.53x Karlsonator - no BSC needed.
I know from experience that tuning below fs is not a good id with fullrange drivers, so if you want a good bass response, a waw is the best option. And it helps to crossover a bit higher to relieve stress from the fullrange driver.
If you tune to fs or a bit higher, a single driver setup can work, but not very loud. If you push the driver to it's limits, the distortion will rise very fast and mess up the sound. So i use a single driver setup only for nearfield (the speakers on my desk in my office). In the living room where i sit about 2.5m from the speaker, i use a waw setup wich works wonderwell good. Both setups use the same brand and type of FR drivers.
If you tune to fs or a bit higher, a single driver setup can work, but not very loud. If you push the driver to it's limits, the distortion will rise very fast and mess up the sound. So i use a single driver setup only for nearfield (the speakers on my desk in my office). In the living room where i sit about 2.5m from the speaker, i use a waw setup wich works wonderwell good. Both setups use the same brand and type of FR drivers.
Room modes dominate frequencies below 200Hz, or so. Adult humans can't hear above 15kHz, maybe less. Consequently, I equalize the main channels between 200Hz and 15kHz using a Harman preferred curve then adding small tweeks on top of that to compensate for my personal hearing deficiencies.
To me, it doesn't make sense to design main channels with the intention of reproducing low frequencies. Not as a goal. Though they may reach down into lower frequencies as a result of other design choices such as building arrays.
Unless you intend on using your speakers outside.
To me, it doesn't make sense to design main channels with the intention of reproducing low frequencies. Not as a goal. Though they may reach down into lower frequencies as a result of other design choices such as building arrays.
Unless you intend on using your speakers outside.
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For myself, the issue is HF beaming...I currently have a vintage 12 " full-ranger in a modified form.
I'm contemplating a AN 15 classic ferrite and an Aurum Cantus G1 working together...the big fifteen full-range, with the inevitable falling HF performance, mated to the ultra efficient G1 ribbon.
No horns, no exotic baffles, alignments...straight forward, an Ampslab Synergy two-way, 2K crossover, dual amp per , to correct for the phasing.
My current FR is just fine, as long as I'm sitting exactly inline with the voice-coil...about knee-high.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick........
I'm contemplating a AN 15 classic ferrite and an Aurum Cantus G1 working together...the big fifteen full-range, with the inevitable falling HF performance, mated to the ultra efficient G1 ribbon.
No horns, no exotic baffles, alignments...straight forward, an Ampslab Synergy two-way, 2K crossover, dual amp per , to correct for the phasing.
My current FR is just fine, as long as I'm sitting exactly inline with the voice-coil...about knee-high.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick........
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Hey Richard,
That's close to what I have at the moment. Works great. I have the 15" AN fertile (non classic" with a Aurum Cantus. What works well, if you could device a mechanism that points the tweeter towards yourself or (Toe in whole speaker and have a rear firing tweeter ( cheaper stuff)... I use a Tangband micro tweeter.
Oon
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