Just a general question:
What is the subjective difference in sound quality between a BIB and a tapered transmission line? I know physical size is different... the tapered transmission line is smaller.
Both with the vent? out of the top.
HiFi Loudspeaker Design
vs
BIB - Speaker Projects
They look similar in construction... just the position of the driver relative to the closed end and the direction of taper is different.
Thanks! Forgive me if this is basic... just trying to understand the differences.
What is the subjective difference in sound quality between a BIB and a tapered transmission line? I know physical size is different... the tapered transmission line is smaller.
Both with the vent? out of the top.
HiFi Loudspeaker Design
vs
BIB - Speaker Projects
They look similar in construction... just the position of the driver relative to the closed end and the direction of taper is different.
Thanks! Forgive me if this is basic... just trying to understand the differences.
Can of worms alert!
What you're referring to as BIB would more properly be called a rear-loaded horn for single full-range drivers designed to be super efficient for use with low power amps.
The definition of a transmission line depends on who you ask. The name was initially attached to designs by Arthur Bailey intended on reducing the colouration of cabinet resonances by "transmitting" those effects down the first approximation of an infinite transmission line. A secondary characteristic was to reinforce low frequency output somewhat. Most designers since Bailey seem focused on the bass augmentation feature.
What you're referring to as BIB would more properly be called a rear-loaded horn for single full-range drivers designed to be super efficient for use with low power amps.
The definition of a transmission line depends on who you ask. The name was initially attached to designs by Arthur Bailey intended on reducing the colouration of cabinet resonances by "transmitting" those effects down the first approximation of an infinite transmission line. A secondary characteristic was to reinforce low frequency output somewhat. Most designers since Bailey seem focused on the bass augmentation feature.
One of the issues one has to be able to live with in a BIB is the high amount of ripple in the bass. A good TL will have much less.
There is also much more design latirude with a TL so a much larger range of capability.
I would say brute force (BIB) vrs finesse.
dave
The BIB is a simple tapped horn, that is not in dispute. The rest of your sentence is totally false, a BIB is much more versatile than that.
What a TL is was greatly expanded when the modelers by Augspurger and King came out. Virtual exploration of this much larger TL space has shown a much wider range of possible designs that can be placed in the TL space.
In that sense the BIB is a TL.
There is the actual TL design by Bailey and a small group of people who do not regard anything a TL unless is adheres to the title of that paper. None of Bailey’s examples fit into that part of TL space. If the speaker produces any extar bass, it is immediately eliminated from satisfying the “title”. To satisfy that criteria the box would need to be pushed to aperiodic, rarely used for bass enclosures, an essential tool for midTLs.
dave
Yes. And the speaker gets extra bass because it uses the 1/4 wave resonance. So in actual fact it is a reosnant enclosure. It will tend to be more non-resonant than a smaller enclosure simply because of the greater length of the damping… you need approximatly a quarter to half wave lenght of damping to kill a resonance (given appropriate damping density). Modern TLs will often use other tricks to get a better LP function, allowing for less damping and less reduction of the desired quarter-wave resonance.
dave
dave
Quite.
Without taking anything away from Bailey's important work, he was far from the first in the field; Olney and Stromberg-Carlson got there about 3 1/2 decades earlier, and presented as much or more in the way of hard data and physics.
Be that as it may, 'sound quality' is a meaningless term unless specific criteria are laid down, and comparisons are difficult at the best of times with dissimilar enclosure types. The BIB is technically a Voigt type [single] tapped horn. In practice, its behaviour is rather more linear than an anechoic or 1/2 space model alone implies as it's intended for boundary loading -it's not as linear as some, but it's usually acceptable, and certainly does provide a lot of LF extension and a certain 'freedom' (via the large Vb) from a physically simple enclosure. I still like them a lot. They're all related if you wind the physics back sufficiently, but the objectives usually differ.
Without taking anything away from Bailey's important work, he was far from the first in the field; Olney and Stromberg-Carlson got there about 3 1/2 decades earlier, and presented as much or more in the way of hard data and physics.
Be that as it may, 'sound quality' is a meaningless term unless specific criteria are laid down, and comparisons are difficult at the best of times with dissimilar enclosure types. The BIB is technically a Voigt type [single] tapped horn. In practice, its behaviour is rather more linear than an anechoic or 1/2 space model alone implies as it's intended for boundary loading -it's not as linear as some, but it's usually acceptable, and certainly does provide a lot of LF extension and a certain 'freedom' (via the large Vb) from a physically simple enclosure. I still like them a lot. They're all related if you wind the physics back sufficiently, but the objectives usually differ.
I know where i have that paper.
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/download/Onley-acoustic-labyrinth.pdf
Perhaps fredi has the SC article?
dave
BiB can sound really open and airy, and enveloping. BiB can have thunderous bass at times (quantity) or lighter, "tuneful", possibly "dry" bass (quality - less of the fundamental, more harmonics) but I wouldn't call BiB's bass "really tight" in part because the corner position excites the room modes and so you might end up with certain notes literally shaking the house (i.e., on certain songs).
You can offset the BiB's from the corners to try to reduce that, but you may also be just reducing the corner loading by too much at a certain point. Room positioning is, I think, far easier and flexible with a tapered TL but it may subjectively have less "fun factor," less of a plug-and-play simplicity (i.e., you get pulled into tweaks instead of just accepting it out of the box).
Try them both, if possible. Ultimately, you're matching the speaker to your exact room, driver, amp, musical taste etc. But for simplicity, I think BiB is hard to screw up
You can offset the BiB's from the corners to try to reduce that, but you may also be just reducing the corner loading by too much at a certain point. Room positioning is, I think, far easier and flexible with a tapered TL but it may subjectively have less "fun factor," less of a plug-and-play simplicity (i.e., you get pulled into tweaks instead of just accepting it out of the box).
Try them both, if possible. Ultimately, you're matching the speaker to your exact room, driver, amp, musical taste etc. But for simplicity, I think BiB is hard to screw up
I didn't really want to start a debate of whats a BIB... trust me I have read many threads about this.
But... given a driver... say a Alpair 10p... what would be the subject bass differences between a "traditional" Tapered TL and the BIB? The tapered TL looks like it would be significantly smaller and be able to place pretty much anywhere... whereas the BIB is much larger in size and really only fit for corners.
But what does the bass sound like? do we need any BSC for either? Is it a difference of controlled and finesse vs powerful?
Thank you for all your replies so far!!!!
But... given a driver... say a Alpair 10p... what would be the subject bass differences between a "traditional" Tapered TL and the BIB? The tapered TL looks like it would be significantly smaller and be able to place pretty much anywhere... whereas the BIB is much larger in size and really only fit for corners.
But what does the bass sound like? do we need any BSC for either? Is it a difference of controlled and finesse vs powerful?
Thank you for all your replies so far!!!!
BiB can sound really open and airy, and enveloping. BiB can have thunderous bass at times (quantity) or lighter, "tuneful", possibly "dry" bass (quality - less of the fundamental, more harmonics) but I wouldn't call BiB's bass "really tight" in part because the corner position excites the room modes and so you might end up with certain notes literally shaking the house (i.e., on certain songs).
You can offset the BiB's from the corners to try to reduce that, but you may also be just reducing the corner loading by too much at a certain point. Room positioning is, I think, far easier and flexible with a tapered TL but it may subjectively have less "fun factor," less of a plug-and-play simplicity (i.e., you get pulled into tweaks instead of just accepting it out of the box).
Try them both, if possible. Ultimately, you're matching the speaker to your exact room, driver, amp, musical taste etc. But for simplicity, I think BiB is hard to screw up
ok this is what I was looking for. thank you.
For A10p, FHXL is still probably the least compromised enclosure, Silbury getting even more out, but you have to be able to live with 6’ tall.
I don’t recall seeing a tapered TL for the A10p (the Pensil is likely the most common TL, Jim Griffin also notable, both ML-TLs), or a BIB, you may well be entering new territory.
dave
I don’t recall seeing a tapered TL for the A10p (the Pensil is likely the most common TL, Jim Griffin also notable, both ML-TLs), or a BIB, you may well be entering new territory.
dave
I have the Silbury plans.. just need to find a place to cut the wood and then I can build them.
Would the following be a good start for a tapered TL?
HiFi Loudspeaker Design
And would there be a difference between dual a10p per side in the TL other than increasing the Sd from 88.25 to 176.5 ?
Thanks again for all this useful information!!
Would the following be a good start for a tapered TL?
HiFi Loudspeaker Design
And would there be a difference between dual a10p per side in the TL other than increasing the Sd from 88.25 to 176.5 ?
Thanks again for all this useful information!!
I fully expect Bob Berner to start offering flat-paks (once the decline of the plague gets him back to the shop), we have been talking about adding the miniOnkens and the Woden boxes to his offerings.
No. Those are a joke. They use classic design methodology which is sort of like throwing a dart with a blindfold after someone spins you around a random number of times.
It is interetsing to go to that page and see that he has pinched my visualization of teh Atkinson TL (not a recommended design).
Vent (if an ML-TL) has to be doubled as well, and a few other minor details.
dave
They're not the smallest, I grant you.
No. They're simply setting a line length based on Fs without accounting for the effect of taper (or that Fp = Fs is not necessarily going to give good results), and a volume requirement that takes no account of the requirements of the drive unit (which is determined by Fs, Vas and [effective] Qt).
Haven't heard the Silbury, but the 'kissing cousin' Victor for approx same weight class Fostex (i.e. FF165WK) works very well indeed. Of the half dozen or so enclosures in which I've heard at least 4 variants in the MA 10cm family of drivers, I'd suggest the Pensils. They're a fairly easy build, deliver very good LF extension, and are more flexible in terms of room placement than either the FHXL or rear mouthed manifold designs.
While you may not need one, if you're convinced that a tapered TL is the way to go, I think you need to search no further than this forum.
While you may not need one, if you're convinced that a tapered TL is the way to go, I think you need to search no further than this forum.
I haven't been here in about a year and the first post I see is related to BIB's... awesome!
BIB Calculator | Speaker Projects by Zilla
Hope everyone is staying safe during the quarantine.
Godzilla
BIB Calculator | Speaker Projects by Zilla
Hope everyone is staying safe during the quarantine.
Godzilla
This is one of those things best tested yourself.
By now, I know a few different ways to sim a BiB in hornresp and together they give me enough clues to make a refined design. So you can have both a refined tapered TL and both a refined BiB. I think frequency response should be corrected if possible, so room modes or simply room gain needn't factor in.
What is left is probably pretty similar, although the BiBs I built had NO baffle step and often even a rise in bass level. There is a certain deepness to its bass that I suspect is caused by the relatively extreme length. I play a lot of symphony orchestra music and reggae, so it's really an asset. It may also be for smaller fullrange drivers, but perhaps not to everyone's taste. But it's not slow/undynamic bass, it thumps if it needs to.
The BiB is usually mentioned as a bass solution, but in my experience it clears up midrange as well. A better/more comforable load? So larger bass and better midrange.
I have no diy experience with TLs, but they have mostly sounded "good" to me. Nothing that really grabbed my attention and I tend to think that is pretty good.
By now, I know a few different ways to sim a BiB in hornresp and together they give me enough clues to make a refined design. So you can have both a refined tapered TL and both a refined BiB. I think frequency response should be corrected if possible, so room modes or simply room gain needn't factor in.
What is left is probably pretty similar, although the BiBs I built had NO baffle step and often even a rise in bass level. There is a certain deepness to its bass that I suspect is caused by the relatively extreme length. I play a lot of symphony orchestra music and reggae, so it's really an asset. It may also be for smaller fullrange drivers, but perhaps not to everyone's taste. But it's not slow/undynamic bass, it thumps if it needs to.
The BiB is usually mentioned as a bass solution, but in my experience it clears up midrange as well. A better/more comforable load? So larger bass and better midrange.
I have no diy experience with TLs, but they have mostly sounded "good" to me. Nothing that really grabbed my attention and I tend to think that is pretty good.
Yes, it's tuned low because it's long. Or rather, it's long because it's tuned low. Having a very large Vb that swamps Vas does tend to free up the midband a bit, although its not guaranteed. They're no panacea, but they do offer a lot of qualities from a very simple build. Yes, you can do better with a more refined design, but if you load them right, a lot of performance for very little £, making them an ideal first build if you can live with the height, and some like them enough that they stick with them.
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