You are quite right about finishing the amps. I have plenty of Solid State amps so I could play the full-range fspeakers when ever they are done. However, I know for a fact that even my 120W/ch @ 4 ohms amp can barely drive my current speakers without clipping. A 8-10 watt EL84 amp would be into serious clipping at my normal listening levels. I have looked on a o'scope and know what kind of peak voltage swing I would need.
But you are right about my priorities for sure!
-david BTW
But you are right about my priorities for sure!
-david BTW
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Joined 2009
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I would consider the AN Super 12" Ferrite drivers as having the best potential to move air, sound great overall and still be available at a reasonable cost. You won't benefit much from the AlNiCo. David Dicks told me 5% improvement at best on the 15" Super and I would expect a similar answer if asking about the 12". I have the 15" and it sounds really darn good. I've looked at the published results for almost all of the AN drivers and recommend the 12" on account of not liking what I saw for many of the other drivers as well as finding the 12" the closest in performance to the 15" regarding frequency response. I was set to order a pair myself earlier this year but put it on hold when the Trump Tax caused prices to go up.
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I asked David Dicks about a cabinet I already have from 30 years ago built with some old dynaudio drivers in it. The front board is changeable so I have been seriously considering some AN 12" for those. They are roughly 5.1 cubic feet is size, and I can cut any size port needed. David Dicks said they are a bit too small for the 15". Still, that is also an option if I want to re-use the cabinets I have for my living room. Up until now my primary thinking is something for my smaller lab/office and the tube amp. But again I really want to hear them first. I have more than 40 years experience in design and high end studio recording but my ears are the final judge, and I don't have time or energy to build three or four different sets to find what I want. Correct engineering principles, measurements and finally listening is my motto. Yes I am hard to please, and welcome any input from the forum.
Not my favorite, kinda coloured up top, pricey
I breifly heard a pair of these, they had real potential
A driver i quite like, but the top needs fixing.Added phase pugs work nicely to do that. Efficiency not anywhere near as high as the spec. High Q makes it hard to put in a box — i have 4 i’m still trying to figure out exactly what to do. Likely something simialr to BigUns box for his AN15.
My other favorite 8” driver, nut a whole lot easier to implement. Throw it into a 50-65 litre sealed box and enjoy. I put phase pugs in these too.
The FF series from Fostex is often under appreciated. The most efficient of the lot to so.
I am a big fn of the Mark Audios. I do prefer the A10p to the A12p. It goes higher, lower, and has better DDR/resolution/ability to reproduce the rally small stuff. If you just have to have the 6.5” driver i prfer the A12pw. The new CHN-110 looks like it could be a real price/performance winner.
dave
I would not trust anything DD says about cabinets. Do your own sims.
He got kicked off here, because when he was challenged by the membership on his completely off-base box designs he went ballistic and his membership was excused.
I have heard a number of AN, none of those which have been mentioned, 1 had potential (but kinda pricey for what you got). Waxx’s description was much what i heard for the rest.
And re the 8” AlNiCo, this is not created teh same as the other 8s, it is clear from the specs that the AlNiCo magnet is not as strong as the others. The highish Q might mean some bass thou.
dave
Typo; Dave is referring to the Alpair 10P. This is one area we actually have a good-natured disagreement; Dave likes the 10P, I like the 12P.
The CHN110 is brand new and not yet in distribution. I'm not even sure there are any outside the factory yet. Based on the chamber data it's a good unit of its type.
The CHN110 is brand new and not yet in distribution. I'm not even sure there are any outside the factory yet. Based on the chamber data it's a good unit of its type.
I've built both the Alpair A12p in the regular (not super) pencil and the Seas in a large sealed floorstanding cabinet. I have the A10p in a bookshelf cabinet so can't say how they'd sound in a larger floor standing cab, but I imagine quite well as I love the A10p.
While I like them both, my preference in the A12p pencil for better hi freq definition and finesse. While the Seas could do dynamics a bit better, I felt they needed the hi end attenuation suggested on their website with an inductor and resistor. The A12p doesn't call for this. Others may be fine with simply listening to the Seas as they are or a bit off axis.
Mario
While I like them both, my preference in the A12p pencil for better hi freq definition and finesse. While the Seas could do dynamics a bit better, I felt they needed the hi end attenuation suggested on their website with an inductor and resistor. The A12p doesn't call for this. Others may be fine with simply listening to the Seas as they are or a bit off axis.
Mario
Thanks Scottmoose and Toobheld for your comments. I am grateful that you have given me specific comments on my two top choices. I have considered a bookshelf size system with a pair of subs to help with my full organ music but that is just more work and I have plenty of projects on my plate. Still, I will continue studying the various cabinets and make a decision.
It will be hard to beat the midrange of my 2-ways, which use the Scan-Speak 4531K slightly modified. It is crossed-over at 1.6 kHz to a really good silk dome tweeter. The designer did a fabulous job of matching the drivers and it sound the best like a point source of any 2-way I have ever heard. All this, however, comes at the expense of a much low efficiency for sure.
It sounds like either the Seas (with a contour network) or the 10p or maybe 12p are probably the best candidates.
-david BTW
It will be hard to beat the midrange of my 2-ways, which use the Scan-Speak 4531K slightly modified. It is crossed-over at 1.6 kHz to a really good silk dome tweeter. The designer did a fabulous job of matching the drivers and it sound the best like a point source of any 2-way I have ever heard. All this, however, comes at the expense of a much low efficiency for sure.
It sounds like either the Seas (with a contour network) or the 10p or maybe 12p are probably the best candidates.
-david BTW
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Th edash is right next to the zero. I did that at least twice yesterday, guess i only fixed one :^)
dave
I have a pair downstairs. I can’t believe the suggested price. even if it is twice that, these should be a bargain. They promise to get close to the A12pw in terms of low end extension (and box size).
dave
You could well be surprised. That XO is going to be heard & will cause issues a FR does not have to deal with.
dave
Yes after I thought about it for a while I figured that you just hit the next key over.
So in my younger days I learned to play classical organ, and even worked as an apprentice pipe organ builder for several years.
The lowest notes on a typical small church organ are at 32 Hz. Larger ones can go lower to 16 Hz. I am not naive about the fact that a full-range driver probably will not have response down that low, but where do these cabinets for the various MarkAudio or Seas cabinets tune. Sometimes the cabinets show the tuned frequency but sometimes not. For example, the Super and standard Pensil.
I did some quick bass-reflex calculations for the Seas driver, and with a flat alignment SBB4 I got roughly 46 Hz tuning in about 2.6 cu ft. That certainly will cover the top part of the lowest octave so I know that I cannot really get all the way there without another radiator.
However, most music doesn't go that low. Are these loaded cabinets with the 10p or 12p, or Seas capable of sufficient bass. For example the lowest note on an electric quitar is E1 approx 41.2 Hz. I can just use other speakers/headphone for my full-range music if needed.
I have calculated a QB3 alignment and the bass-reflex tuning would be several Hz higher.
So, the choice is to just plan on a low sub and use the full-range for everything else, or make sure the full range cabinet goes as low as possible with a given driver and live with it.
Thoughts?
-david BTW
So in my younger days I learned to play classical organ, and even worked as an apprentice pipe organ builder for several years.
The lowest notes on a typical small church organ are at 32 Hz. Larger ones can go lower to 16 Hz. I am not naive about the fact that a full-range driver probably will not have response down that low, but where do these cabinets for the various MarkAudio or Seas cabinets tune. Sometimes the cabinets show the tuned frequency but sometimes not. For example, the Super and standard Pensil.
I did some quick bass-reflex calculations for the Seas driver, and with a flat alignment SBB4 I got roughly 46 Hz tuning in about 2.6 cu ft. That certainly will cover the top part of the lowest octave so I know that I cannot really get all the way there without another radiator.
However, most music doesn't go that low. Are these loaded cabinets with the 10p or 12p, or Seas capable of sufficient bass. For example the lowest note on an electric quitar is E1 approx 41.2 Hz. I can just use other speakers/headphone for my full-range music if needed.
I have calculated a QB3 alignment and the bass-reflex tuning would be several Hz higher.
So, the choice is to just plan on a low sub and use the full-range for everything else, or make sure the full range cabinet goes as low as possible with a given driver and live with it.
Thoughts?
-david BTW
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I know, a coaxial but...
Radian 5208c coaxial project
Radian Audio 5208C Coaxial Speakers - Radian Dual Concentric 5208C 8" time aligned coaxial speakers. Radian 5208C coaxial speaker - Radian 5208C coaxial speaker handles 200 watts RMS. Radian 5208C 8" coaxial driver is available here. Radian coaxial s
Radian 5208c coaxial project
Radian Audio 5208C Coaxial Speakers - Radian Dual Concentric 5208C 8" time aligned coaxial speakers. Radian 5208C coaxial speaker - Radian 5208C coaxial speaker handles 200 watts RMS. Radian 5208C 8" coaxial driver is available here. Radian coaxial s
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I can assure you I have the Mullard specs in front of my eyes, and the claim you can get 17 "clean" watts out of EL84 is utter rubbish.
UL connections at 20% turns and the docs give a very optimistic 15W, while in Pentode rates absolute max 15W at a muddy old 3.5% THD. (clip)
Va max is 300V, which is why they can't make the power with the typical 8K A-A.
Of course you can dream.
Even the 6V6 running 350-360V HT can't do a clean 10W! (it uses the same transformers).
Of course if you want more power from these crappy little valves, double them up, drop the A-A load to 6K, run them PPP, at least then you get close to the Pa of EL34 (25W), with roughly the same gain.
You can always use 6DZ7 if your are feeling freaky, and absolutely HAVE to use EL84 clones.
You will struggle to get anything even close to REAL 30W cleanly.
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Except for the smaller standmounts, yes. FHXL (A10p) wil get you into the low-mid 30s, i expect Joan (A12pw/CHN110 is similar. Woden TLwith A12pw gets closer to the mid 20s.
I don’t know about reflex loading the FA22. If i can get away with sealed (rarely) i like doing that.
If you want to ge to under 20 hz, it will take dedicated woofers. It is typically not cheap.
dave
To my mind, EL84/6BQ5 is a very nice tube. Sure it won’t put out as much power, but i personally prefer it to EL34.
17w is pushing it. Dyna claimed 17.5 w with their SCA35, but not pushing for max power usually brings sonic improvements. I havve a 4w PP class A triode EL84, that within its power, sounds very very good.
dave
6vheater, I agree with you. I will be lucky to get 12 watts out of my EL84s. Since my ears are nearing 65 yrs, I do not care a lot about stuff above 15 kHz so that is why my leanings are to a sub. I actually have two large 12" sub cabinets with peerless drivers and passive radiators, but then I would a crossover and amps as well.
My original idea is a good full-range, high efficiency (but much cleaner that any Klipsch I have ever heard) system suitable for my EL84 p-p without other augmentation.
My original idea is a good full-range, high efficiency (but much cleaner that any Klipsch I have ever heard) system suitable for my EL84 p-p without other augmentation.
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