I'm looking to build a pair of bookshelfish size full rangers to sit on top of some built ins in my dining room/living room. Total space is 13' wide, 25' long, 9' ceilings.
I really like the idea of building a planet10 style full ranger with a Mark Audio driver. I am looking at the Mar-Ken-7.3, Plu-Ken7, dPlu-Ken11, and Mar-Ken10.3.
My biggest question is effective loudness. In addition to providing quality sound in my mainlining area, I'd like these speakers to be loud enough to provide music for a party with a dozen or so people. Not anything like a rager with people screaming and dancing, but a cocktail party.
Considering, I'm leaning towards the dPlu-Ken11 because it seems that the Pluvia 11 can handle a little more power. It does seem to give up some of the detail of the smaller drivers and not dig as deep though, so I'd love to hear others thoughts on this. Thanks!
I really like the idea of building a planet10 style full ranger with a Mark Audio driver. I am looking at the Mar-Ken-7.3, Plu-Ken7, dPlu-Ken11, and Mar-Ken10.3.
My biggest question is effective loudness. In addition to providing quality sound in my mainlining area, I'd like these speakers to be loud enough to provide music for a party with a dozen or so people. Not anything like a rager with people screaming and dancing, but a cocktail party.
Considering, I'm leaning towards the dPlu-Ken11 because it seems that the Pluvia 11 can handle a little more power. It does seem to give up some of the detail of the smaller drivers and not dig as deep though, so I'd love to hear others thoughts on this. Thanks!
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Too big for any actual room gain, just close boundaries and cocktail parties average ~80 dB in the ~dedicated music area, so most any of the modern 'high' Xmax 'FR' drivers will suffice down to ~40-45 Hz, plenty low for this type of party.
My avatar clues you in on my type of party
, so will leave it to others familiar with the various MA designs for guidance.
GM
My avatar clues you in on my type of party
, so will leave it to others familiar with the various MA designs for guidance.GM
Too big for any actual room gain, just close boundaries and cocktail parties average ~80 dB in the ~dedicated music area, so most any of the modern 'high' Xmax 'FR' drivers will suffice down to ~40-45 Hz, plenty low for this type of party.
My avatar clues you in on my type of party
GM
That's too easy, by dismissing the question with bass only, as everybody knows that bass is a 'foundation' of sound. It 'predicts' the global loudness...of course when everything is accordance with it, the bass.
Same you can do to any portion of the frequency band, since it's in accordance with the rest...but, no, then it occurs the directivity at HF, the dispersion and so on, so a broader view must be used.
Saying that 'the speakers will be sitting on a built in...' opens many scenarios: where are the people? are the speakers aimed towards a direction? Are they high, mid or low placed? Any insane idea of using dual speaker? etc etc.
You never really know how it's gonna go down until the day after...
Big space = Big speakers!
The "7" drivers from MA probably need some help down low, the 10's can possibly "get by" alone, but not flat to 40hz.
I guess you could call the boxes I made for the Fane 12-250TC somewhat "Bookshelf", at least the format. About 100-120 liters each gets you far, manages 110db/2pi (measured) through most of the frequency range.
MattHauk, are you opened to different designs?
If yes, I'd check X's dual mini karlsonators.
They would fit the bill as loud enough for anything you mention, plus a wide dispersion of the sound for everyone to enjoy them.
Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FD's
If yes, I'd check X's dual mini karlsonators.
They would fit the bill as loud enough for anything you mention, plus a wide dispersion of the sound for everyone to enjoy them.
Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FD's
You don't have to run it full tilt constantly, but then you'd have the option to do so if the situation will allow it. And they don't need any power at all to play what most people would consider really loud.
What can I say? I used to like small FR's... And I still do, but big FR's are so much fun!
What can I say? I used to like small FR's... And I still do, but big FR's are so much fun!
Not really, it's a COCKTAIL PARTY SYSTEM! You basically want a response from before the days of sub woofers, so a rolled off ~40 Hz tuning is plenty. The rest is governed by speaker efficiency, so only needing ~80 dB avg. over just a portion of the room is easily handled by even the abysmally low eff. 'FR' drivers common nowadays.
GM
You're 'preaching to the choir', but complete overkill for a bona fide cocktail party for a 'dozen or so' folks in a room with ~ the same gross volume as mine.
GM
Wow! Thanks for all the info already! I'm defiantly up for different designs, however, spouse approval factor is very important here. So something I can stain to be close to our oak built ins or Walnut table. Overall I'm budgeting around $200-$250 for this. S
A little more info on placement. The built in dish cabinets are in the corners of the room on the short (12') side, 7' tall 9so I have 2' clearance to the ceiling. They are about 3' wide, and form a triangle in the corner.
I am a bit of a newbie, but it seems that placement like that will reinforce the bass a little 9but maybe the room is too big for it to matter) and that I will want something with decent off-axis performance.
A little more info on placement. The built in dish cabinets are in the corners of the room on the short (12') side, 7' tall 9so I have 2' clearance to the ceiling. They are about 3' wide, and form a triangle in the corner.
I am a bit of a newbie, but it seems that placement like that will reinforce the bass a little 9but maybe the room is too big for it to matter) and that I will want something with decent off-axis performance.
In general; up high is best overall, just like in a restaurant, bar, etc., and if this 'china' wall is where you want the highest SPL, then the corners are ideal with up to +9 dB boost down low depending on room construction, though best to design to standard 2pi space [setting on the floor] and if you're lucky and wind up with too much bass, that's what tone controls are for. .
Regardless, since it's a high aspect ratio room with a bit higher than normal ceiling, need a dimensioned floor plan to make sure we're all on the same 'page' since it could wind up ideally needing in/on ceiling or HT 'atmos' type surround speakers.
GM
.Regardless, since it's a high aspect ratio room with a bit higher than normal ceiling, need a dimensioned floor plan to make sure we're all on the same 'page' since it could wind up ideally needing in/on ceiling or HT 'atmos' type surround speakers.
GM
Never thought I'd hear that from you!
Regardless, flat to 40/45hz does require a little bit more membrane area than the MA 7 series can provide. And the 10 series may be a little bit small as well. However, if the requirement is flat to 50/60 hz...
I think it's safe to say the goal is a single driver box, no (or very simple) crossovers or DSP trickery.
Seas FA22RCZ?
Thanks guys! I am out of my house today but might be able to post a pic anyway of where they are going if that helps.
I think extension flat into the 50s will be fine.
Something like the SEAS will be out of my price range for this project. I’m looking to spend up to $250 or so.
So, I think it’s down to a large cabinet for some Alpair 10s, or the duel mini Karlaonator. I’d love to hear what the differences would be.
Overall, I’m looking for good off-axis performance, ability to fill a 25x13 room, and good quality, fairly flat sound.
Thanks!
I think extension flat into the 50s will be fine.
Something like the SEAS will be out of my price range for this project. I’m looking to spend up to $250 or so.
So, I think it’s down to a large cabinet for some Alpair 10s, or the duel mini Karlaonator. I’d love to hear what the differences would be.
Overall, I’m looking for good off-axis performance, ability to fill a 25x13 room, and good quality, fairly flat sound.
Thanks!
Oh yeah. I should add that I am planning on driving these (for now) with either a 70s pioneer sx-650 (35 watts per channel) or a Onkyo ax-51 (40 watts per channel). So the incredible efficiency of the Karlsonators is not strictly needed. Though it would open me up to being able to do some cool amp builds in the future.
Never thought I'd hear that from you!
Regardless, flat to 40/45hz does require a little bit more membrane area than the MA 7 series can provide. And the 10 series may be a little bit small as well. However, if the requirement is flat to 50/60 hz...
I think it's safe to say the goal is a single driver box, no (or very simple) crossovers or DSP trickery.
Seas FA22RCZ?
What can I say other than 'horses for courses' and despite my well documented HE preferences, the vast majority of the dozens of speaker systems I designed/built for relatives, friends, co-workers, etc., in my active 'career' were [very] inexpensive and qualified as 'cocktail'; not 'frat', not live, not stupid loud 'swingers'/nightclub, etc., party systems, though did a few of those too.
Who said 'flat' to 40/45 Hz? Not me, I said rolled off because it's not needed nor historically wanted, at least here in the USA and judging by [vintage] spec drivers around the world it was no different, though never hurts to have some boundary gain to increase mid-bass dynamic headroom where a recording's or live concert's powerful 'bass' was and may still be for mainstream music.
Regardless, if deep bass is wanted for private listening or just to hasten the party elsewhere
, that's what a switchable super tweeter and proper [multiple] sub system is for now that DSP is cheap. Re the Seas FA22RCZ, my kind of performer to cram up high in a corner
, but a [current] budget buster.Anyway, he's interested in driver models I know little about beyond specs, which the higher efficiency ones seem 'good enough', so waiting on those who do to chime in as my experience with Mark's early designs, while great 'bang for buck' and mostly well built judging by how well they did DSOTM and similar till bounced off the back plates.
Having virtually no audible distortion to gauge impending VC 'clanging' or some sort of cushioned stop doesn't work for me.
GM
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Allright, I agree that "flat to 60 then slow roll off" would be a very nice if you aim for some room loading.
I had a good experience making a Voigt pipe for the Tang Band 1611SA, and the SAF is 57$ each. Doesn't have to be a voigt pipe, any other vented design can be adapted to give similar performance.
Tang Band W5-1611SAF 5" Full Range Speaker
But the Mark Audio 10.3 fits the budget though a bit more expensive, and should have more fitting specs IE relatively loud sans room gain.
The Tang Band W5-2143 should also be considered at 60$ each.
I really hate accounting for room gain, it should be avoided, so here are some sims that fill your requirements with all of these drivers.
I had a good experience making a Voigt pipe for the Tang Band 1611SA, and the SAF is 57$ each. Doesn't have to be a voigt pipe, any other vented design can be adapted to give similar performance.
Tang Band W5-1611SAF 5" Full Range Speaker
But the Mark Audio 10.3 fits the budget though a bit more expensive, and should have more fitting specs IE relatively loud sans room gain.
The Tang Band W5-2143 should also be considered at 60$ each.
I really hate accounting for room gain, it should be avoided, so here are some sims that fill your requirements with all of these drivers.
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