Hmmm ... I do have a miniDSP 2x4 and a Hafler 9270 just sittng in the closet ... may be time to play with a subwoofer. I think I may grab a set of the pre-built OB's from Canuck and then play with an enclosure ... worst case I can get up and running with the OB's na default back to that if nothing else pans out.
jameshillj - I have two pending solutions. One is a Velodyne 12" sub, in a reflex enclosure. Wife hates infrasonic sound, so I need to be careful there. Second is a pair of 18" drivers I could add to the baffle. That would require a 2nd amp to economically do the 150 hz rolloff along with the necessary rising response to compensate for the OB. How are you doing your Xover?
craigtone - I'm aware that some of the electrostatic designs house a subwoofer in an integrated enclosure below the panel. I've thought perhaps an easy "cement half A to half B" solution would be to get a pair of subs and integrate them into the OB board structure. At an Xover of ~150 or lower, it probably wouldnt matter if the woofer speaker basket was flush with the OB panel - or set back by 1.25".
To me, the point of these woofer assisted FRs is clear - keep that FR cone movement as small as possible, cross as low as possible to still achieve it, keeping that 1 - 8K range free and clear of any Xover meddlings. As I've noted, those big K-Horns and Altecs cross at below 1k, which I believe has something to do with why they're so liked - even though measured frequency response isnt the very best.
craigtone - I'm aware that some of the electrostatic designs house a subwoofer in an integrated enclosure below the panel. I've thought perhaps an easy "cement half A to half B" solution would be to get a pair of subs and integrate them into the OB board structure. At an Xover of ~150 or lower, it probably wouldnt matter if the woofer speaker basket was flush with the OB panel - or set back by 1.25".
To me, the point of these woofer assisted FRs is clear - keep that FR cone movement as small as possible, cross as low as possible to still achieve it, keeping that 1 - 8K range free and clear of any Xover meddlings. As I've noted, those big K-Horns and Altecs cross at below 1k, which I believe has something to do with why they're so liked - even though measured frequency response isnt the very best.
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I'm not a great fan of the sound of the miniDSP at all but just for bass, it's okay if you don't start trying to solve all the room eq problems - they run out of 'steam' pretty quickly and start to sound awful but the delay works quite well - like most of the dsp family, "less is best"...
Hey Joe,
I'm not keen on reflex chambers for bass much at all and going much below 40Hz, it's not easy to get a clean accurate bass sound but the reviews about the 12" Velodyne seem pretty positive - they come with a control unit, yes?
I've struggled with the room position with most subs, especially the better ones, and they usually end up in unconventional places and facing up at different angles too and this usually doesn't sit too well with most Mrs - multiple subs are much easier to get right sound - not sure if the James Romeyn multi-subs system (Audio Kinesis?) is still being promoted but this is along the same lines as the work done by Floyd Toole (Harmon multiple subs) - these generally Xover about 80Hz, not much higher.
Adding the 18" bass drivers would possibly overload your room unless it's pretty big and quite lossy (windows, doors, etc) - the 15" FR looks good to get down to <100Hz in that baffle, depending if you sit it on the floor to get floor coupling - I'd be a bit inclined to stay simple at the start and just see how it comes together
We have access to possibly some of the best bass drivers in the world (Lorantz Audio) and this is a tremendous advantage yet some people don't actually like extremely clean bass, even down to about 30Hz.
For the Xover, I started with an electronic unit and after playing around with driver offset, etc it became pretty clear that matching the OB driver with the bass driver, even in a B2 chamber, required better control so started the progression from Berhinger to miniDSP, and now looking at that Bodzio system.
One big problem with that is I'm not too good at any of this dsp stuff and the Bodzio isn't really for beginners like me. The Sydney DEQX isn't much better either and the deVialet is in the same boat.
But, there's plenty of other programs and systems, particularly over your way - I read up recently about the Danley Signal dsp preamp and that's certainly worth a good look - once you look outside of the usual hifi scene/brands and at the pro-audio gear, there's a lot of it and it's been around for a long time too.
Hope this helps - a bit of a mess, sorry.
Hey Joe,
I'm not keen on reflex chambers for bass much at all and going much below 40Hz, it's not easy to get a clean accurate bass sound but the reviews about the 12" Velodyne seem pretty positive - they come with a control unit, yes?
I've struggled with the room position with most subs, especially the better ones, and they usually end up in unconventional places and facing up at different angles too and this usually doesn't sit too well with most Mrs - multiple subs are much easier to get right sound - not sure if the James Romeyn multi-subs system (Audio Kinesis?) is still being promoted but this is along the same lines as the work done by Floyd Toole (Harmon multiple subs) - these generally Xover about 80Hz, not much higher.
Adding the 18" bass drivers would possibly overload your room unless it's pretty big and quite lossy (windows, doors, etc) - the 15" FR looks good to get down to <100Hz in that baffle, depending if you sit it on the floor to get floor coupling - I'd be a bit inclined to stay simple at the start and just see how it comes together
We have access to possibly some of the best bass drivers in the world (Lorantz Audio) and this is a tremendous advantage yet some people don't actually like extremely clean bass, even down to about 30Hz.
For the Xover, I started with an electronic unit and after playing around with driver offset, etc it became pretty clear that matching the OB driver with the bass driver, even in a B2 chamber, required better control so started the progression from Berhinger to miniDSP, and now looking at that Bodzio system.
One big problem with that is I'm not too good at any of this dsp stuff and the Bodzio isn't really for beginners like me. The Sydney DEQX isn't much better either and the deVialet is in the same boat.
But, there's plenty of other programs and systems, particularly over your way - I read up recently about the Danley Signal dsp preamp and that's certainly worth a good look - once you look outside of the usual hifi scene/brands and at the pro-audio gear, there's a lot of it and it's been around for a long time too.
Hope this helps - a bit of a mess, sorry.
Color me ignorant, but those smaller caintuck "barrel" baffles seem mighty SMALL to me. Heck, they're not much wider than the 15" driver itself. My seat of pants tells me that these would be DOA under 200 Hz. That's nowhere near a full range system, IMHO.
Am I missing something here, has OB theory been updated to make such small baffles into "full range" speakers?
I've yet to build an OB, but have a nice 22" x 8' piece of baltic ply sitting in the garage. A pair of Visaton B200s are ready in a box. I know the B200s are no longer the hot ticket, as FR flavor of the month has changed since then but heck...already paid for!
I imagine the biggest technical challenge is getting realistic bass extension (at least to 40 Hz) to match the open "airy" sound of baffles. Assuming my sealed Yamaha subs probably won't be a very good match...perhaps Math Audio DSP Room EQ with Foobar might put it all together? Humpty Dumpty?
Am I missing something here, has OB theory been updated to make such small baffles into "full range" speakers?
I've yet to build an OB, but have a nice 22" x 8' piece of baltic ply sitting in the garage. A pair of Visaton B200s are ready in a box. I know the B200s are no longer the hot ticket, as FR flavor of the month has changed since then but heck...already paid for!
I imagine the biggest technical challenge is getting realistic bass extension (at least to 40 Hz) to match the open "airy" sound of baffles. Assuming my sealed Yamaha subs probably won't be a very good match...perhaps Math Audio DSP Room EQ with Foobar might put it all together? Humpty Dumpty?
If you love the full-range sound but want deeper low end and higher SPLs, consider a WAW, or Woofer assisted wideband. The in-room response of mine digs into the mid-20hz range. Since you seem to have plenty of amps, also consider passive line-level crossovers.
Alpair 7.3eN/12pw WAW build
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Alpair 7.3eN/12pw WAW build
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Sorry for the total noob question but I am an electronics guy not a speaker guy (yet)!
My current speakers are modified Klipschorns. I have built several fullrange speakers in the past ... Fostex, Alpair 12p Pencils, Alpair 5 Frugel Horn Lites,etc. There is a clarity and imaging that fullrange speakers do that other speakers can't compare with. But, they don't dig deep enough for me to replace my behemoth corner horns.
The F15 looks promising but as stated in this thread, the Qts is a bit high for an enclosure. I used unibox to model the enclosure they have on their website but the F3 is only ~40Hz with only a 1.5db spike. I e-mailed them and asked if they had any measured data on that enclosure and they do not yet I see a lot of F15's in bass reflex cabinets on their website.
I was wondering if maybe a MLTL enclosure would be able to go a little deeper? Unfortunately the programs for those are unobtanium and/or over my head so I have not simulated that yet. Just wondering if the rules for MLTL and Qts were the same as bass reflex since they are very similar.
Also forgot to add that OB is out because my room is small at 12' x 14' and I listen across the 12' direction. That and lack of bass would not satisfy me. I also need high efficiency as I run a 45 SET.
@jameshillj - I'm going to take your advice and stay simple until they at least break in and then who know's? I may decide to just leave 'em as a stereo pair.
I have a second set of table stock. I could put the 18's centered in a 42" tall section of those and try them as "subs". Then, I have a pair of 4" and 6" full range drivers I could try in succession with the 18's, on the same baffle. It could be designed so ultimately, I could swap the 15's into this second pair - as soon as I cut a couple more 14" circles.
Looks like a lot of future experimentation with these combinations. The 18's will be driven by their own amplifier, into which I (hopefully) can integrate the necessary frequency response tailorlings to suit the crossover to the FR and a rising low frequency response to comp for the OB. All this to hear Billy Cobham's double bass; one mic in the left drum, one in the right. You know how that's going to translate!
I have a second set of table stock. I could put the 18's centered in a 42" tall section of those and try them as "subs". Then, I have a pair of 4" and 6" full range drivers I could try in succession with the 18's, on the same baffle. It could be designed so ultimately, I could swap the 15's into this second pair - as soon as I cut a couple more 14" circles.
Looks like a lot of future experimentation with these combinations. The 18's will be driven by their own amplifier, into which I (hopefully) can integrate the necessary frequency response tailorlings to suit the crossover to the FR and a rising low frequency response to comp for the OB. All this to hear Billy Cobham's double bass; one mic in the left drum, one in the right. You know how that's going to translate!
@Diogenio - yeah, those small kegs are almost like having the speaker in free air. That's how I had mine setup for a few weeks. I was using a sub in one corner and it seemed to match nicely. Then I went and built these OBs. I was pretty used to the sound of the near free air setup that the OB sounded funny. I needed to re-eq in my player was all. I got rid of the sub to make room for the Xmas tree, so I'll be listening to just the two F15s for a while...
Give it a go! I think the airy dipole sound plus zero sound reflection back through the speaker cone issue is two steps forward for one back on the bass. Which can be solved later by using a WAW approach if you plan for it on the baffles.
Give it a go! I think the airy dipole sound plus zero sound reflection back through the speaker cone issue is two steps forward for one back on the bass. Which can be solved later by using a WAW approach if you plan for it on the baffles.
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Don't forget the low freq contribution that you get from the floor coupling and as you raise the 15FR upwards, the bass response will drop off so mating up with the 18" drivers can sometimes be quite simply rolling off the higher freq that you feed to the low freq bass amp, if you go that way.
Dave (planet 10) has plenty of experience doing this and well worth asking him about it - this is a sort of continuation of keeping things simple, and doing things one at a time - a much faster learning curve too
Dave (planet 10) has plenty of experience doing this and well worth asking him about it - this is a sort of continuation of keeping things simple, and doing things one at a time - a much faster learning curve too
Just chiming in here, but I went with a semi OB design using the Lii Fast10S drivers.
I cut some odd baffles with 1.5" butcher block countertops from HD. There's a rounded section that flares around the Lii drivers. I added a pair of Dayton Ultimax UM10 in their own slotted enclosure, but both drivers share the baffle. Running the Fast10S off an EL34 P/P amp, and the Ultimax off a Crown XLS1000. MiniDSP between the preamp and the 2 power amps crossing things over.
Picture is kind of bad. Perspective is skewed and makes it look like the baffle isn't symmetrical.
I cut some odd baffles with 1.5" butcher block countertops from HD. There's a rounded section that flares around the Lii drivers. I added a pair of Dayton Ultimax UM10 in their own slotted enclosure, but both drivers share the baffle. Running the Fast10S off an EL34 P/P amp, and the Ultimax off a Crown XLS1000. MiniDSP between the preamp and the 2 power amps crossing things over.
Picture is kind of bad. Perspective is skewed and makes it look like the baffle isn't symmetrical.
I used a speaker Klangfilm KL405 with a similar Qts, Fs = 62-65Hz in a box without bottom and back walls:
Height 2m width 80cm and depth 56cm
and got bass about 40hz, -3db
Measured by a WM61A microphone from a distance of 2m
(??) Kelang film ????KL405 14? ?? ???? - ??????? - ???????? - ???????? ??|??|???|??|????|????|????|???|???|???|??|??
If it's possible for me to get the same bass in this box for Lii Audio Special 15 "Full Range Speaker F-15
Height 2m width 80cm and depth 56cm
and got bass about 40hz, -3db
Measured by a WM61A microphone from a distance of 2m
(??) Kelang film ????KL405 14? ?? ???? - ??????? - ???????? - ???????? ??|??|???|??|????|????|????|???|???|???|??|??
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
If it's possible for me to get the same bass in this box for Lii Audio Special 15 "Full Range Speaker F-15
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I've been playing around with LATL software and started with 4*Sd area for s straight MLTL. Ended up with a 1.5m tall cabinet! Looked for an off-the-shelf port (6" Parts Express) that keeps velocity below 10m/s. I am able to get the box pretty low! What do you think? Or is this too much of a peak at the port SPL?
I know ... this is a HUGE cabinet!
I know ... this is a HUGE cabinet!
Attachments
In reply to: Lii Audio 15" full range
Hi jjasniew, I was thinking the same thing. I have been following the "Big Betsy" Project on the Decware website and have also been casually thinking about making a pair myself.
I have been looking online for information that teaches about Open Baffle design i.e. are there any specific ratios or features that a good Open Baffle should have? So far I haven't found anything that teaches this.
I then thought about simply copying the design and thought about using Butcher Block for the Open Baffle but so far this seems like a very pricey solution. The actual dimensions of the Big Betsy are on the website and since I'm not selling it, I don't think (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) there is any harm if I copy for my own use. Where did you see the baffles you wanted to use for $100? And yes - I think you need a Router to make the necessary cuts , the hole to mount the driver and the curved sides. I was hoping to find a wood shop that could do this for me economically.
I have a pair of Omega single driver monitors and while (for me) they are light in Bass they image incredibly and have an enormous sound-stage, I use it with the Decware Zen Triode.
Does anyone know of any websites that speak to how to design an Open Baffle Speaker? I've read that simply using a rectangular piece of wood to mount the speaker is not a good idea but not why. I am very new to the world of Open Baffle and high efficiency speakers but am very intrigued by it. Any help, tips, pointers etc are greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Hi jjasniew, I was thinking the same thing. I have been following the "Big Betsy" Project on the Decware website and have also been casually thinking about making a pair myself.
I have been looking online for information that teaches about Open Baffle design i.e. are there any specific ratios or features that a good Open Baffle should have? So far I haven't found anything that teaches this.
I then thought about simply copying the design and thought about using Butcher Block for the Open Baffle but so far this seems like a very pricey solution. The actual dimensions of the Big Betsy are on the website and since I'm not selling it, I don't think (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) there is any harm if I copy for my own use. Where did you see the baffles you wanted to use for $100? And yes - I think you need a Router to make the necessary cuts , the hole to mount the driver and the curved sides. I was hoping to find a wood shop that could do this for me economically.
I have a pair of Omega single driver monitors and while (for me) they are light in Bass they image incredibly and have an enormous sound-stage, I use it with the Decware Zen Triode.
Does anyone know of any websites that speak to how to design an Open Baffle Speaker? I've read that simply using a rectangular piece of wood to mount the speaker is not a good idea but not why. I am very new to the world of Open Baffle and high efficiency speakers but am very intrigued by it. Any help, tips, pointers etc are greatly appreciated. Thanks!
In reply to: Lii Audio 15" full range
Hi Scottmoose - I agree with your comment about the dimensions and that there may be a lot to loose. Since the time of your last post, have you found any websites that speak to how to calculate/formulate dimensions for an Open Baffle speaker design?
It seems to be that just grabbing a rectangular slab of wood and popping a hole "somewhere" is not the best approach - seems to me like there should be some guidance/theory about how to go about doing this.
Thanks,
Steve
Hi Scottmoose - I agree with your comment about the dimensions and that there may be a lot to loose. Since the time of your last post, have you found any websites that speak to how to calculate/formulate dimensions for an Open Baffle speaker design?
It seems to be that just grabbing a rectangular slab of wood and popping a hole "somewhere" is not the best approach - seems to me like there should be some guidance/theory about how to go about doing this.
Thanks,
Steve
I also just got a pair of F15. The idea was to test OB with just a FR driver.
For the time being I just placed them on the floor some two feet away from the nearest wall and four feet away from the other. Being on the floor they are slightly facing up.
I wait for the breaking period, now they have 14 hours.
I run them with an FW-F5 and a Shiit Sys.
I plan to keep them about a foot or 1-1/2 foot above the floor, at the same place from the walls with some sort of big Betsy barrel shape I found fitting the place nicely.
Just that way on the floor, today Glen Gould's piano was really interesting. I listen to all my records and see what works and what don't.
But also I keep in mind that I have just nearby my usual speakers and it is not a good idea to have few pair of speakers in the same room close to one another.
So, patience, wait, listen, think, up to now I guess it should be pleasing at the end. But I may also try a Karlson enclosure at some stage.
For the time being I just placed them on the floor some two feet away from the nearest wall and four feet away from the other. Being on the floor they are slightly facing up.
I wait for the breaking period, now they have 14 hours.
I run them with an FW-F5 and a Shiit Sys.
I plan to keep them about a foot or 1-1/2 foot above the floor, at the same place from the walls with some sort of big Betsy barrel shape I found fitting the place nicely.
Just that way on the floor, today Glen Gould's piano was really interesting. I listen to all my records and see what works and what don't.
But also I keep in mind that I have just nearby my usual speakers and it is not a good idea to have few pair of speakers in the same room close to one another.
So, patience, wait, listen, think, up to now I guess it should be pleasing at the end. But I may also try a Karlson enclosure at some stage.
You can see around here or if you are lazy you can start with just turning up the bass in the preamplifier
What amps are those?
Dear bobikdartanan,
In the thread discussing the Lii Audio Fast 15 speakers you posted a picture of the amp(s) you are using. They look AWESOME! What amps are those and what type of Tubes do they use, they look gigantic! What an amazing setup, how does it sound? I hope you enjoy it! All the best!!
Warm regards,
Steve
Dear bobikdartanan,
In the thread discussing the Lii Audio Fast 15 speakers you posted a picture of the amp(s) you are using. They look AWESOME! What amps are those and what type of Tubes do they use, they look gigantic! What an amazing setup, how does it sound? I hope you enjoy it! All the best!!
Warm regards,
Steve