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Full Range Driver in LCR Dual Center
Full Range Driver in LCR Dual Center
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Old 20th September 2019, 01:42 PM   #1
PGM1975 is offline PGM1975  Canada
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Default Full Range Driver in LCR Dual Center

Good day!

I'm not an experienced audio DIYer but I've done a few small projects in the past. I'm a hobby woodworker.

I'm looking to build and imitate the Artison LCR Dual Center system: LCR | Savant. For simplicity, though, I'd like to use full range drivers such as the Dayton Audio PS95/83 or the Peerless TC9FD, instead of a combination of mid-range and tweeter. Also, I want to install these on the wall, not on the TV.

My living room is 12ft x 15ft, and I sit about 8ft to 10ft from a 60" TV. TV is hung on the wall at eye level.

How many drivers per channel should I use for best result? What ohm rating for the drivers? How should the drivers be wired?

The speakers would be used in conjunction with an 8" subwoofer.

I'd really appreciate if someone could assist me with these questions!

Thanks
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Old 20th September 2019, 11:56 PM   #2
chrisb is offline chrisb
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Well then, you’re not really emulating the Savants - they are not what you’d call a minimalist design.
A few questions should be answered before any useful advice can be proffered.

You don’t mention how these will be powered - i.e. what source(s), signal processing and power will be used, and whether simple stereo and sub (2.1), or higher level of surround. Before proceeding much further, I should note that I’ve evolved my own HT system over the past 15yrs using FR drivers, and definitely have some strong opinions that some might consider to border on dogma, so consider the source. My room is approx twice the area you describe, and the listening position is about the same from the front row as you indicate. I’m also an unabashed advocate of multi-channel - including discrete centre channel - and multiple subs.

By “using (sic) in conjunction with an 8” subwoofer” can it be assumed that you mean a single separated powered unit with mono LFE channel signal derived from surround receiver/processor? If so, then in the fairly small room described, and with the crossover frequency from mains to sub set at, say 100Hz, you could probably get by quite nicely with a single competent FR driver per channel.

Personally, I’d be inclined towards at least the next size class up from the PS95 - say something like the PS100 or if budget allows, the PS180. My current set up is 7.1, with Alpair 10.3 across the front row (LCR), with different enclosure types for the mains and center. Previous FR speakers I’ve tried were Fostex FF125WK, 165WK, and Alpair 7.3. I’ve never heard any of the Daytons, but they get a lot of good press here, and while a lot of folks love them - particularly for line arrays- my only experience with the Peerless was “meh”.

The system is in a basement room whose layout / traffic pattern dictates that the screen and front row/height surrounds sit in front of a 9ft wide / 3ft tall window, with the electronics and center speaker on a low boy type stand with an integral upstand on which the TV is attached. This constrains size of enclosure for the centre. I’ve tried both discrete and phantom center with several different speaker types, and prefer the former. Other folks have the opposite experience.

More sage advice to follow, no doubt.
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Old 21st September 2019, 12:16 AM   #3
PGM1975 is offline PGM1975  Canada
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To answer your question about how the speakers will be powered, I'll simply be using my Marantz 5.1 AV receiver. My plan would eventually be to build rear speakers with the same drivers. What I like about the Savant / Artison speakers is that they still use the centre channel output from the receiver, but they're set up like a phantom center.
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Old 21st September 2019, 02:55 AM   #4
GM is offline GM  United States
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Old 21st September 2019, 03:33 AM   #5
perceval is offline perceval  Taiwan
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Using multiple drivers, if each run full range, will bring a lot of trouble, comb filtering and a very narrow vertical dispersion.

For myself, if I were to use 3" or 4" drivers, I'd go with the TABAQ design, hang them on the wall, the centre placed under the tv, and surrounds hung either behind or on the sides of the couch.

Paint them black to match the tv, of the color of the wall to blend them with the room.

Easy to build, and sounds wonderful. The PS95 would work in that design, but not the TC9.
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Old 21st September 2019, 04:08 AM   #6
CraigSu is offline CraigSu  United States
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I agree with Perceval up to a point. I’d build either the TABAQs and hang them upside down to get the driver closer to ear height or build Jim Griffin’s Small MLTL for Alpair 6 (Small MLTL for Mark Audio Alpair 6 Drivers) without the length of the false bottom, move the port to the front, and hang them upside down for the same reason as the TABAQs.

I wouldn’t bother with a center channel until I heard either one of these to see if they can generate a phantom center channel on their own. I realize neither one of these uses the drivers you mentioned. If you still want to pursue those then perhaps one of xrk971’s miniKarlsonators would work.
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Old 21st September 2019, 04:36 AM   #7
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Full Range Driver in LCR Dual Center
Quote:
Originally Posted by PGM1975 View Post
... the Artison LCR Dual Center system...
I’m guessing you ar egoing to need some DSP to properly deal with that array.

Something that looks wizzy but i would be skeptical of how well they work.

dave
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Old 21st September 2019, 07:26 AM   #8
GM is offline GM  United States
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Based on my recent 'adventures' in SOTA DSP, you really can make a 'silk purse out of a sow's ear', so I imagine there's a pretty nifty processor in each section driven by an equally impressive controller, but build it out of 'FR' drivers and it will need far more processing done right than the inexpensive DSP [most] folks here are using, so TTBOMK this is likely an exercise in futility.

A reasonable facsimile though is a variation I did for my first big screen TV in the early '80s with a derived 3rd channel that only added just enough speech range/amplitude to 'center' it on screen except of course now would be a discreet center channel.

The 'FR' drivers would be across the top, spread apart at the THX 60 deg [included] angle and angled down, toe'd in as required. The number of drivers required in each line array will be dependent on how loud they need to be capable of at low distortion. The CC might only need one or two since it's going to be just enough to fill any 'hole'/'softness' in the vocals.

GM
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Old 21st September 2019, 07:47 AM   #9
chrisb is offline chrisb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGM1975 View Post
To answer your question about how the speakers will be powered, I'll simply be using my Marantz 5.1 AV receiver. My plan would eventually be to build rear speakers with the same drivers. What I like about the Savant / Artison speakers is that they still use the centre channel output from the receiver, but they're set up like a phantom center.
OK, so while others have offered their own observations in the interim, I'll add more word salad to the buffet. I couldn't find much more detail on exactly how these are supposed to work than a brief description of a shitton of drivers (32 per pair) for 3 separate channels in 2 enclosures, providing a phantom centre channel by having a curved line array of small drivers on each side of the screen. Apparently you can get a patent for anything that nobody had heretofore found a need for, or bothered to make dated detailed drawing of. (Sorry for the snark) I'm assuming that the tweeter mounted on the curved outside panel of the enclosures is run in conjunction with the two pairs of the larger midbass drivers per side in an MTM configuration. Actually this is kind of an interesting approach for installations where a physical single centre is not convenient or precluded by design aesthetic.

All and all, these are not your grampa's wall mount speakers, and I'm still trying to decide if I think this is brilliant, or just marketing BS. One would need to hear them for themselves to reach a conclusion.

As you've indicated the use of a "proper" surround receiver, of which most modern models should have sufficient DSP facilities for the task, I think the main question to address would be how to most expeditiously and affordably emulate this design.

From what I can deduce from the description and photos of the LCR, the minimum way to do so would be a total of two FR drivers per enclosure in isolated compartments - one for each of the L&R channels, and the second run in tandem with the other channel to provide the phantom centre.

I'd still be inclined to use a larger driver for the L&R, but perhaps a pair of smaller drivers for the centre pair would suffice. Where things get interesting is that many surround receivers are rated for 6ohms or higher when actually powering multiple channels, so it might be prudent to wire the phantom centre pair in series to provide a safer load for the amp. The receiver's auto calibration function should easily deal with sensitivity differences, and many models ost allow for drilling down further in the speaker set up menus to fine tune XO frequencies, level adjustments, and perhaps even EQ by ear. My last 2 Denons , current Onkyo and daughter's Marantz certainly do, as did my sister's old Marantz before it died.

The other concern I'd have is that based on several of my own builds, very shallow enclosures as might be most suitable for wall mounting can have issues with colorations from early reflections off back wall through the lighter weight cones that are often found in smaller FR drivers, which raises the question of the distance from the front of the screen to the wall - it's presumed you want the front of enclosures flush with the screen. Many modern flat screens are amazingly skinny, and unless you're using an articulating mounting bracket that allows for adjustment of all three angles - depth from wall, up/down tilt, and splaying from side to side - that distance might be only a very few inches. My sister has a 70 or so inch Sony on a fully articulating bracket which can be pulled out sufficiently from the wall to achieve almost 20dg of splay to either side - something she actually uses occasionally when in the kitchen of an open floor plan great room.
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Last edited by chrisb; 21st September 2019 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 21st September 2019, 06:33 PM   #10
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Full Range Driver in LCR Dual Center
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
Previous FR speakers Iíve tried were Fostex FF125WK, 165WK, and Alpair 7.3
Donít forget the A10PeN tat preceded the A10.3eN (and he also tried the A11ms (stock).

dave
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