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Alpair 10.3 FAST / WAW guidance needed
Alpair 10.3 FAST / WAW guidance needed
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Old 23rd August 2019, 02:29 PM   #1
Lars Aalto is offline Lars Aalto  Finland
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Default Alpair 10.3 FAST / WAW guidance needed

I'm looking to build an Alpair 10.3 FAST floorstander pair and need some guidance.

Original plan was to build Pensils but I realized that my placement close to wall & corner may be problematic for lower end.

Click the image to open in full size.

So I built simple sealed boxes for the Alpair and they already go down to almost 30hz, especially the corner side. To be able to adjust the lower end the plan is to build separate sub parts, to replace the 1 sub I already have.

Size would be around 900x210x330mm for sub parts, 18mm plywood, 40l with tuning around 29hz resulting in F6 around 25hz. Woofer on the side with vent facing back.

Amp Monacor 300d, woofer GZIW 250X

Top part sealed for 10.3 would be around 210x210x330mm with 18mm plywood, around 7l with F6 around 80hz.

Click the image to open in full size.

Questions:

Any major issues that I'm missing?

What is a good crossover range, around 100-200hz? I will use active crossover from plate amp/main amp

How should I place the woofers, facing outside or inside, or even same direction?

How should I connect them, subs in RCA mono from main amp or speaker level per side to both top&bottom parts?

I have a measuring kit coming so I can do basic measuring if needed. Main amp is Denon x1400 so I can use it for some EQ for the subs.

Last edited by Lars Aalto; 25th August 2019 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 25th August 2019, 06:34 AM   #2
Lars Aalto is offline Lars Aalto  Finland
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Anyone?

I'm hoping this would be a modular setup where I can try out different FR elements in the top enclosure.

Bottom subs could be upgraded as well at some point, I'm eyeing Dayton UM10-22 subs as an upgrade.
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Old 25th August 2019, 07:25 AM   #3
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Alpair 10.3 FAST / WAW guidance needed
Hi Lars,

You pictures look to be behind your log-in to where ever you have them stored. You need to put them where everyone can see them or attach them to the forum.

I also added to your title to get more eyes.

dave
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Old 25th August 2019, 07:41 AM   #4
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Alpair 10.3 FAST / WAW guidance needed
Now iíll put my badge away.

My sim suggests that 6 litres or a bit less for a damped sealed box with max flat alignment. But anywhere up to about 15 litres would be fine.

How high you cross depends on a number of things. Yesterday i summarized many of the things you should consider when placing the XO: FAST (WAW) build help and opinions (Post #18). Youíll probably find other relavant info.

ButÖ

I am not familiar with the plate amp you mention, but most do not have a real hi-pass function. That makes them best used in what i call a REL configuration. Run the FR sans any filters, just using the 2nd order roll-off of the box. And then bring the sub in elow that. For a ~6L box that is going to be about 85 Hz. That low you have the option of running the woofers in mono. I like to run them stereo but your room will likely let you know which is best. 2nd order on the woofer HP would be symmetrical, but they often come 4th order. Again room, and how hifh doe sthe woofer go.

dave
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Old 25th August 2019, 07:57 AM   #5
Lars Aalto is offline Lars Aalto  Finland
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Many thanks Dave, for both the help with the post and guidance. I've been lurking around for a while and finally had the courage to start my own build.

Running the subs in mono would be easiest, I can then later add MiniDSP in the mix if needed.

Any tips on the woofer alignment, is there any issues having them face each other? That would be easiest as then they would be protected from the little ones.
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Old 25th August 2019, 08:47 AM   #6
waxx is offline waxx  Belgium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Aalto View Post
Any tips on the woofer alignment, is there any issues having them face each other? That would be easiest as then they would be protected from the little ones.
As long as you put one in the opposite phase, there is none. But if you wire them both in phase and then put them facing each other, they will cancel out as they are 180į out of phase. The easiest way to do that phase switch is to switch the + and - signal cable at the driver connectors. Connect the + to the - connector of the speaker and the - to the + connector.
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Old 25th August 2019, 11:13 AM   #7
Lars Aalto is offline Lars Aalto  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waxx View Post
As long as you put one in the opposite phase, there is none. But if you wire them both in phase and then put them facing each other, they will cancel out as they are 180į out of phase. The easiest way to do that phase switch is to switch the + and - signal cable at the driver connectors. Connect the + to the - connector of the speaker and the - to the + connector.
Thank you, I didn't realise that I can use the phase adjustment. I have phase adjustable in both subs from the plate amp, another good thing about active subs.
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Old 25th August 2019, 05:59 PM   #8
chrisb is offline chrisb
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Iíd still suggest that high passing the sealed Alpairs - whether by simple PLLXO or more flexible active XO methods - would yield benefits well worth the effort.
Dave and I have cumulatively played with quite a few brands and models of plate amps over the years, and while they do offer lots of convenience, I tended to avoid them for at least the last 5yrs of my active building. Very few units had decent HP functions - most none at all- and the lower priced 2.1 units were, to be polite, not quite up to our standards. Rhymes with trucking sad.

We had several builds with side mounted woofers; singles and multiples, mono- and bi-pole, and I canít recall ever having issues with bass performance in Daveís fairly spacious room that is very accommodating in that regard. Smaller rooms with asymmetrical boundary loading might be more problematic - your picture does show very tight on the right side.
At one time I had systems in three separate rooms - one was a long and skinny basement room that hardly improved much with rather a lot of DIY acoustic treatment, and I gave up on any more elaborate that near field computer micro sized boxes with a 3Ē FR driver. The large two rooms are approx 320sq ft and well over 600 if you account for the open floor plan. But for some of us furniture and WAF get in the way of what could compose an ideal system, and after over 30yrs of my wife putting up with some pretty awkward arrangements, it occurred to me that domestic peace in my impending and now present retirement years was far more valuable than any short term enjoyment .
Tranquility > ecstasy? Maybe- certainly more effortless for me to maintain.

So, you might want to consider the option of larger enclosures for the Alpairs to retain their LF extension capabilities, but still HP them - say circa 100-120- and implement mono bass, with multiple boxes located around the room. IINM, thatís something that minidsp and plug-in solutions can readily handle.
Of course, Iíve been a big fan of simple floor standers that meld into the roomís furnishings over chunky and visible multiple boxes for quite some time now (see above) . Small sealed woofers can be a lot easier to hide - or you could go the coffee table / cocktail shaker route.
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Old 25th August 2019, 06:07 PM   #9
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Alpair 10.3 FAST / WAW guidance needed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Aalto View Post
Any tips on the woofer alignment, is there any issues having them face each other? That would be easiest as then they would be protected from the little ones.
I am not familair with that woofer so canít speak to alignment, but do keep room gain in mind and donít try to push them too low.

At the frequencies involved it is unlikely important where you put the woofer. I do like using 2 x a size smaller woofer and taking advantage of the huge gains one gets with push-push reactin force cancelation.

dave
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Old 25th August 2019, 06:09 PM   #10
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Alpair 10.3 FAST / WAW guidance needed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Aalto View Post
is there any issues having them face each other?
Waxxís response makes me question my interpretation. Does this mean 2 woofers in 2 boxes with the woofers oriented to face each other or as Waxx seems to imply, are they being used in an isobarik configuration?

dave
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