Hi folks,
Being that this is the area for full range drivers, can anyone tell me their thoughts on Audio Nirvana's Super 8 alcino plus? I am looking to buy these. They run about $1,600 bucks so Id like to make sure I'm making a good purchase.
I'm also looking at buying the AN tube amp el84 I believe. From common sense audio it runs about 600 bucks.
I listen to mostly soft jazz.
Thanks in advance.
Being that this is the area for full range drivers, can anyone tell me their thoughts on Audio Nirvana's Super 8 alcino plus? I am looking to buy these. They run about $1,600 bucks so Id like to make sure I'm making a good purchase.
I'm also looking at buying the AN tube amp el84 I believe. From common sense audio it runs about 600 bucks.
I listen to mostly soft jazz.
Thanks in advance.
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
I don’t think many people will have experience with this driver simply because of the expense but on paper it does look nice - the frequency response does have a bit of a peek around five or 6 kHz which may or may not need to be addressed
i’ve had very good experience with one of their 15” drivers - the quality is good and the sound is very good
As their drivers are manufactured in China you will be paying a 25% premium due to tariffs
i’ve had very good experience with one of their 15” drivers - the quality is good and the sound is very good
As their drivers are manufactured in China you will be paying a 25% premium due to tariffs
According to the published data, the Super 8+ AlNiCo driven by a voltage source amplifier has a Qt of 0.63, a Vas of 69.2 litres and an Fs of 47.2Hz.
Taking the published spec. of the EL84 amplifier, which has a rated damping factor of '>3'. The load is not stated, but assume a DF of 3 for the 7.2ohm nominal of the aforementioned driver & further assume 10ft of 12ga wire to keep series R down. That comes out as a practical output impedance of roughly 2.4ohms, which will raise Qt from 0.63 to about 0.815.
With that basis, a regular vented box is impractical assuming you want a reasonable alignment, so OB, sealed, leaky sealed (aka aperiodic) or a TL variation are the primary options. The lowest possible system Q will be in the low 0.8 regions; say from a practical POV about 0.83, or a box volume of about 970 litres / 34ft^3 depending on damping. Which is a mite impractical, but if you're OK with a system Q of 1.0, that drops to a rather more usable 66 litres (2.3ft^3) assuming a fairly heavy damping, or about 100 (3.5ft^3) with a more moderate amount. That would put Fb around 60Hz, and an F6 around the low 40Hz region.
Taking the published spec. of the EL84 amplifier, which has a rated damping factor of '>3'. The load is not stated, but assume a DF of 3 for the 7.2ohm nominal of the aforementioned driver & further assume 10ft of 12ga wire to keep series R down. That comes out as a practical output impedance of roughly 2.4ohms, which will raise Qt from 0.63 to about 0.815.
With that basis, a regular vented box is impractical assuming you want a reasonable alignment, so OB, sealed, leaky sealed (aka aperiodic) or a TL variation are the primary options. The lowest possible system Q will be in the low 0.8 regions; say from a practical POV about 0.83, or a box volume of about 970 litres / 34ft^3 depending on damping. Which is a mite impractical, but if you're OK with a system Q of 1.0, that drops to a rather more usable 66 litres (2.3ft^3) assuming a fairly heavy damping, or about 100 (3.5ft^3) with a more moderate amount. That would put Fb around 60Hz, and an F6 around the low 40Hz region.
Thanks for the answer. I hope there is some sort of deal before I buy them. Plan on buying them in sept.
Thank you for your response but I don't understand a word you said.
The box that is recommended is a box with a max volume of 2.5 cubic feet. This will be the max potential of the driver. And its recommended that I use fiber glass dampening cloth or wool or cotton on the inside of the box.
Who recommended the 2.5 cubic feet box? If it is David Dicks, the owner of Commonsense Audio, it's plain he does not understand Thiele-Small parameters to design speaker enclosures. I say that since he suggests mixing up various speakers with different cabinets.
If you want a vented alignment you want a Qts range of roughly 0.3 to 0.45.
Higher than that you would want a sealed enclosure.
And if Qts is above 0.7 you will want to go with an aperiodic or leaky sealed enclosure.
Tube amplifiers without feedback will push Qts higher.
Hope this helps.
If you want a vented alignment you want a Qts range of roughly 0.3 to 0.45.
Higher than that you would want a sealed enclosure.
And if Qts is above 0.7 you will want to go with an aperiodic or leaky sealed enclosure.
Tube amplifiers without feedback will push Qts higher.
Hope this helps.
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The CSA cabinet designs are notorious for their poor alignments, which appear to be more a case of accident than design, since, at least based on past practice, they advise ramming wildly different drive units (with wildly different requirements) into the same boxes. Nothing against the company or its products, but the box recommendations -well, in most cases (exceptions exist, but this really isn't one of them assuming the published data is correct) it's a case of 'don't go there'.
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Sorry, I meant 2.8 cubic feet. But yes, Dave Dicks is who I am referring to. Now, it was just his recommendation that the 8's perform best in a 2.8 cubic feet box but doesn't have to be in that box. He said the following, "So, our 8’s reach their potentialin about 2.8 cubic feet.The 10’s reach their potential inabout 5.6 cubic feet. The 12’s reach their potential inabout 8.0 cubic feet. The 15’s reach their potential inabout 13.6 cubic feet."
The speaker diagram he gave me have the following dimensions which comes out to be more than 2.8: 38-1/2” high, 14-1/2” wide, 11-1/2” long. There are two front ports as well.
If anyone doesn't think these are good dimension for the 8" driver, can someone please give me some recommendations? Are the dimension too small? Too big?
Thanks in advance,
Alex
Can you please explain what "Qt's" mean? When you said "0.3 to 0.45" what do you mean? The enclosure will have two front ports so no it will not be sealed. Like, I don't understand what you said.
If you want an 8” full range then the Fostex FE208EZ in a modified Dallas II (only small modification to the rear chamber iirc) is a properly designed system. Worth a google. The Fostex driver was designed to be used with a back loaded horn and also works well with low power valve amps. And if you want to spend a bit more you can add a super tweeter.
Dallas II Build
Dallas II Build
Basically, that drive unit is not well suited to a vented box. Especially not when driven with a high output impedance amplifier like the EL84 design mentioned. That's the short answer. It is not possible to create a decent vented alignment with it, and the one mentioned... well, I wouldn't touch it. I've given you some sealed box volumes above which should be reasonable.
The Qts referred to (which you will see on the driver data sheet) is a mathematical construct which describes the damping of the drive unit at its resonant frequency. It's a combination of Qes (electrical damping) and Qms (mechanical damping). It is also affected by the electrical behaviour of the amplifier connected to it. Higher Q drive units like this one are generally (some exceptions) not well suited to use with vented boxes. Not if you want a good alignment anyway.
The Qts referred to (which you will see on the driver data sheet) is a mathematical construct which describes the damping of the drive unit at its resonant frequency. It's a combination of Qes (electrical damping) and Qms (mechanical damping). It is also affected by the electrical behaviour of the amplifier connected to it. Higher Q drive units like this one are generally (some exceptions) not well suited to use with vented boxes. Not if you want a good alignment anyway.
You have some serious reading you need to do.
Qts refers to the peak response at the driver's resonant frequency due to mechanical losses and electrical control of the cone.
With the Qts of the driver you are considering that high with the enclosure you described you would have a boomy one-note bass response.
AKA a transmission line [TL] and what I recommend.
That, or stuff DD's 2.5 ft^3 vented box to 'taste' with one's favorite damping material and 'it is what it is', so may need tone controls to fine tune either one, preferably the variable DF type found on vintage '40s-50s era [pre] amps, receivers.GM
If you are interested in an 8 inch full range speaker you might consider the Singularity:
Speaker Design Works
This project uses Dayton Audio's PS220 driver.
Speaker Design Works
This project uses Dayton Audio's PS220 driver.
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Joined 2009
Paid Member
Hi,
Dont worry some members like to ascend over with pompous language.
Q(quality) is a value of the section of small signals of Thiele Small Parameters invented by 2 Australian guys, Albert Neville Thiele(Australian Broadcasting Commission) and enhanced by Richard H.Small.
Q (quality) can see as an ratio or index of storage and dispersion of energy of various types as:
QES = Quality Eletrical factor of the System(a speaker driver)
QMS = Quality Mechanical of the System
QAS = Quality Acoustic
QTS is the result of the calc QMS x QES/QMS + QES
In real life mean a low QTS = 0.2 denote a full range driver suited to Horn enclosure. a QTS = 0.8 evince a fullrange driver suited to Bass Reflex or Open Baffle.
This is it, it dont say too much.
Thiele/Small parameters - Wikipedia
Unfortunately this speaker use a xover
1 inductor
4 resistances
1 Capacitor
They dont know how stuff the enclosure to lower the treble.
Speaker Design Works
IMO your best bet is the Super15Alnico in a big Bass Reflex enclosure.
At $1300 if your room accept a big box its a great value per $ imo.
A 15 inches FR driver is a rare bird in the audio hystory.
And alas, some like to talk nonsense.
Not true. Actually the drive units suited to back loaded bass-horns are those suited to any other kind of vented box loading. The myth you are repeating here comes from two basic misunderstandings that people have made for decades about drive units and horns:
1/ They assume a back-loaded bass horn has the same requirements as a front-loaded horn. Which, if it is being used to support the bass of a wideband / fullrange drive unit, it doesn't. And
2/ They looked at old drive units with high power motors and assumed that was necessary, overlooking the fact that those drive units were specifically designed to work with high output impedance amplifiers, which artificially raised their Q.
Open baffle, yes. Bass reflex? I think not. Although if you can show me an example of a high quality vented box alignment using a drive unit with a Q of around 0.8, I would be very interested in seeing it.
Wrong again, it does not use a crossover since there is only one drive unit, ergo there is nothing for that one drive unit to cross over to. It uses a low-pass shelving filter to rebalance the frequency response of the PS220 which is rapidly increasing above ~1KHz, and an impedance compensation network for use with high output impedance amplifiers (unnecessary with low output impedance types).
Since the high frequency response of wideband drive units is produced by the front of the cone (and any sub-cones, e.g. whizzers), not the back, stuffing a loudspeaker enclosure does not 'lower the treble'. Although you can certainly over-stuff a box to the point the air-mass starts to overload the suspension, warp the cone etc. under dynamic conditions.
A very big one, since the Super 15 AlNiCo is significantly under-damped according to its own spec. sheet. In traditional bass reflex terms (not Small's vented alignments) then you're looking at nearly 35ft^3 tuned to about 15Hz with heavy stuffing.
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