Hello!
If this is a newbie question I apologise. I could not find a definitive answer in this forum to this idea.
Lets assume the 2.1 setup is as follows:
1. Onkyo TX-L20D Network Stereo Receiver, Output front L/R 85 W/Ch (4 Ω). It has a subwoofer pre output.
2. Markaudio Pluvia 11 drivers in 5.5 litre (0.2 cubic foot) sealed enclosures. F3 about 100hz. WinISD graph here: Mark Audio Pluvia 7 thoughts | KJF Audio
3. Dayton Audio UM12-22 12" Ultimax DVC Subwoofer in sealed 2.0 cubic ft. (57 litre) (net internal) with 1 lbs. of Acousta-Stuf polyfill, f3 of 36 Hz with a 0.707 Qtc alignment with Monacor SAM-200D Class D 200W Active Subwoofer plate amp.
My questions are:
1. What are the drawbacks of this kind of 2.1 system compared to two huge sealed multi-way floorstanders with similar low end specs (f3 36hz)?
2. Are any of the components in this theoretical system mismatched?
3. Is this theoretically the cheapest combination if I listen only to music and at low to low-medium volume levels and I like tight "sealed sound" and tight low bass and feeling/imaging of full range driver? I mainly use Tidal HiFi as a source, occasionally vinyl.
4. What would be the theoretical ideal crossover point for the sub? 100hz or even 150hz? For sealed Pluvias 80hz would be too low I guess?
If this is a newbie question I apologise. I could not find a definitive answer in this forum to this idea.
Lets assume the 2.1 setup is as follows:
1. Onkyo TX-L20D Network Stereo Receiver, Output front L/R 85 W/Ch (4 Ω). It has a subwoofer pre output.
2. Markaudio Pluvia 11 drivers in 5.5 litre (0.2 cubic foot) sealed enclosures. F3 about 100hz. WinISD graph here: Mark Audio Pluvia 7 thoughts | KJF Audio
3. Dayton Audio UM12-22 12" Ultimax DVC Subwoofer in sealed 2.0 cubic ft. (57 litre) (net internal) with 1 lbs. of Acousta-Stuf polyfill, f3 of 36 Hz with a 0.707 Qtc alignment with Monacor SAM-200D Class D 200W Active Subwoofer plate amp.
My questions are:
1. What are the drawbacks of this kind of 2.1 system compared to two huge sealed multi-way floorstanders with similar low end specs (f3 36hz)?
2. Are any of the components in this theoretical system mismatched?
3. Is this theoretically the cheapest combination if I listen only to music and at low to low-medium volume levels and I like tight "sealed sound" and tight low bass and feeling/imaging of full range driver? I mainly use Tidal HiFi as a source, occasionally vinyl.
4. What would be the theoretical ideal crossover point for the sub? 100hz or even 150hz? For sealed Pluvias 80hz would be too low I guess?
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A lot to unpack here. About the only thing on which I think you’ll find consensus is that Onkyo is a cute looking little package. I didn’t take time to download the owners manual for a full read, so don’t know if you can select an option to HP filter the mains when using the sub, but that’s someone I usually try to do.
When you say assume, does that mean the enclosures have already been built for the Alpairs, or that you’re constricted to the small enclosures? There may be designs that could allow you more bass extension on the A11s for a wider range of comfortable XO to the sub. I’d experiment in the range of 100-120Hz, as well as with placement of the separate sub.
I don’t the listed components would be “mismatched” for the described application - could make for a great moderate listening level system.
When you say assume, does that mean the enclosures have already been built for the Alpairs, or that you’re constricted to the small enclosures? There may be designs that could allow you more bass extension on the A11s for a wider range of comfortable XO to the sub. I’d experiment in the range of 100-120Hz, as well as with placement of the separate sub.
I don’t the listed components would be “mismatched” for the described application - could make for a great moderate listening level system.
BrockLanders,
at present I am running Jordan Eikonas in sealed boxes with a single (temporary) open baffle sub., crossing over at 150Hz. There is no stereo image compromise with this crossover frequency. Pluvia should go down to 150Hz without straining.
See a discussion on bass notes here:
A Comment & a Favor - When is bass not bass?
Hope this helps,
Andy
at present I am running Jordan Eikonas in sealed boxes with a single (temporary) open baffle sub., crossing over at 150Hz. There is no stereo image compromise with this crossover frequency. Pluvia should go down to 150Hz without straining.
See a discussion on bass notes here:
A Comment & a Favor - When is bass not bass?
Hope this helps,
Andy
My guess is it would depend on the XO slopes, but the Pluvia's can run full range, so taking the strain off the bass will definitely help. 120-150Hz should work fine.
The only things to add for a killer system, stereo subs (or do the Geddes Multi Sub approach). And find a way of doing DSP/room correction/active XO. Mini DSP is a good start. Have a look at the Hypex Fusions if you haven't committed already to the Monacor.
The only things to add for a killer system, stereo subs (or do the Geddes Multi Sub approach). And find a way of doing DSP/room correction/active XO. Mini DSP is a good start. Have a look at the Hypex Fusions if you haven't committed already to the Monacor.
Thank you Chris and Randy! Now I'm more confident this will be my next project. So many ideas, so little time!I wonder why many diy audiophile projects are only 2.0, not 2.1 Seems to me that 2.1 solution saves lot of money and space.
Yess it does but Precedent is that a 2.0 setup is or has been acknowledged, for decades, to simply sound better.
All fanboy bleats aside.
Everything is a compromise. Pick whatever suits best.
It can. But it's not a panacea either; physical spacing, crossover frequency & slopes, the space available in terms of layout and convenience are a handful of reasons why people may select one or the other approach, so there's no single answer in either direction to that one. Suffice it to say both can work and are valid, so as previously noted, you go with whatever set of compromises best suits your requirements.
I did build a similar setup with an Alpair 10M Gen3 and a Scanspeak 26W-8534G00 with a passive 1st order crossover at 180hz and it works very well. The sub is ported and tuned to 25hz. I amp it with a 32w PP tube amp (EL34 tubes) and it's a wonderfull good sounding setup.
The Pluvia 11 should also work in this kind of setup i think as it's specs are very similar to the older Alpair 10M Gen3. The scanspeak subwoofer i use is very good and not expensive (100€). But the speakerbox is rather big (50x45x80cm) for the low tuning i use...
The Pluvia 11 should also work in this kind of setup i think as it's specs are very similar to the older Alpair 10M Gen3. The scanspeak subwoofer i use is very good and not expensive (100€). But the speakerbox is rather big (50x45x80cm) for the low tuning i use...
I would think that, unless your system is set up for very nearfield listening, a 11 pluvia might be marginal in providing full dynamic range for HT. I may be wrong and admit to zero time with the 11 pluvia. I do have experience with the Alpair 10 drivers. Dynamic range was not their strength even when filtered around 200hz for a sub. It ended up being compromised with midrange cone breakup. This was not isolated to a single pair. Happened with both a sub and without a sub.
THe OP doesn't want to use it in HT setup, only for music on moderate level.
And i don't have that experience that you have. I listened to a lot of music on a lot of speakers, and the dynamics of the Alpair 10M are perfectly OK compared to other speakers, i actually found them very dynamic and fast reacting. Especially when paired with a sub with a crossover at arround 150a-200Hz. I use mine in a 8x6x2m room and only amp them with a 32w tube amp (for the sub and the alpairs) and never go beyond half open (wich is already very loud in my room).
If you want movietheater-levels in a big hall, they are certainly not fit, but for the average living/music room they are certainly loud and dynamic enough if you ask me, and that for music and HT.
Yes, HT punch in the gut and loud sound levels are not my areas of interest. I prefer movies I can enjoy with my TV's speakers and I prefer music that can be enjoyed at moderate volume levels, I just want to hear the widest sensibly possible frequency spectrum of the recording My livingroom where l play music is around 10x5 meters. Couch/listening position is 4 m from the speakers.
My livingroom where l play music is around 10x5 meters. Couch/listening position is 4 m from the speakers.
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Yes, HT punch in the gut and loud sound levels are not my areas of interest. I prefer movies I can enjoy with my TV's speakers and I prefer music that can be enjoyed at moderate volume levels, I just want to hear the widest sensibly possible frequency spectrum of the recording
Then a setup like mine would work perfectly. You could use an other sub if you don't want the big ported boxes i have, as long as the efficiency is arround 89-90dB and the bandwith goes high enough (see below)
You could use also a crossover (active or passive, what you prefer) arround 150-200Hz. A first order keeps the signal mostly in phase and makes the transition smooth (wich i like the most) and my setup has speakers who go wide enought to handle that. You need to count that the woofer must be relative flat at least 3x the crossover frequency (in my case it's more like 7x) and the FR must have an FS of 1/4th of the crossover frequncy (FS of the Pluvia is +/- 38Hz so no 1st order cr lower than 160Hz) and then you are safe (i take broad measures for this). You could also go higher in order for your CR, or use a dsp. In any case measure your speakers and adjust to measurements, don't just use a textbook crossover or a generic one.
In my setup the efficiency measured in my garden is about 86dB (loss due to cr and boxes) and it's rather flat between 25 and 17K with a very slow slope at the top end. I'm not at home so i can't post the measurements now, but if i not forget it i'll do it later
For amps, your Onkyo will do it rather good, but a tube amp sounds better with this kind of speakers. I use a 32w Prima Luna Prologue 4 (stock EL-34 tubes in PP) for it mostly, but in the heat of the summer that amp gets too hot and i switch it for a 45w Marantz PM5004 (my spare amp), wich is still very good sounding. For tubes i would not use an amp less than 25w, for solid state not less than 40w (both in 8R).
And there are other ways also. This is just one way to do this... So read as much as you can about this.
The REAL question is whether those MA metal cones will hold up. I found that 300 - 400 hours into their life, the A10Ms worked OK. But as they began to age a bit, I assume that the cones started to fatigue and generate increasing amounts of breakup distortion. That is with a listening position 6 feet from the speakers listening to classical music. I don't have any kind of HT system (never have had one) and have generally moved on to large multi-way systems even though I don't come anywhere close to exercising their dynamic range potential. But I no longer have any doppler effects.
Well, i had my first Alpair 10M Gen3 since four years, and listened roughly estimated +5000 hours on it and i have others that are a few months old and have maybe 300h on it, and i prefer the older ones. The newer ones are still a bit stiff i have the impression, not like when brand new, but still not the ease of moving air of the older ones... Both have been on tube and solid state amps, and both are in ported (but different) speakers and get used a lot.
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