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Polymate3D FD61 - 3D Printed Full Range Speaker Driver- In development
Polymate3D FD61 - 3D Printed Full Range Speaker Driver- In development
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Old 9th September 2019, 04:42 PM   #51
zman01 is online now zman01  Bangladesh
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Polymate3D FD61 - 3D Printed Full Range Speaker Driver- In development
Paul,

Very good stuff and the developments look promising !

Btw, the new cone printed with 3DXTech CarbonX looks nicely done and with the ridges and more rigid material, should have much less flex. It will be interesting to see how it performs in real life; from what I have read, cone material ideally should be a good balance between rigid and damped, and yes, keeping it relatively light at the same time.
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Old 9th September 2019, 05:51 PM   #52
Spike415 is offline Spike415  United Kingdom
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@ Xrk971

Thanks for the kind words. It was the kind of research I was looking for prior to starting and during this project but all you can find is the principles. Not the reality and direct comparisons. Along with it helping me to make a driver that I compete, it hopefully helps others in learning and hopefully clarify things as well.

PS95-8 is a very nice driver I agree. A little weak on the bass side but its a small driver so wouldn't expect anything more. I have some alpair 6M's as well I could compare with but the 6M is a larger cone. What kind of frequency to you crossover at if you don't mind me asking?

Yeah I have seen there printers along with some other areas I am interested in but money is always tight so I make do with what I can get. Very british approach I guess!

@ zman

Thanks zman. Due to the magnet motor flux density being weaker than a standard driver, I have to compensate with a longer winding which has put even more focus on keeping weight down. This latest cone on it's own weighs just 1.68g. A massive improvement over the 9g the original P1 prototype had. I have done ridges once or twice before and results of a blue snowball mic showed that it helped but those ridges were straight. This one is curved enough that very little of the cone has a simple arc to follow when looked at from a side view. This also effects the distance the sound has to travel to reach the cone edge which in turn will hopefully control cone breakup in a cleaner fashion.

As always though, the ears and the data will lead me on my path.

Paul
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Old 20th September 2019, 03:43 PM   #53
Spike415 is offline Spike415  United Kingdom
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Default 3.3L Vented enclosure Test!!!

3.3L Vented 3-Way Shootout

PS95 vs P27 vs P29

Both P27 and P29 using the new copper magnet motor

Click the image to open in full size.

Hello everyone. Big one today. Testing 2 cone profiles against the Dayton PS95, but in 3.3L vented cabinets. Same size drivers, same size cabinets (Different designs I know but helpful still), same SPL, same distance, same room and equipment. A straight apples to apples comparison!

So for anyone reading along and waiting for some direct comparisons, here you go:

Click the image to open in full size.

Blue = Dayton PS95-8
Green = Polymate3D P27
Red = Polymate3D P29

As you can see from this, things are looking good. I didn't like how hard it is to distinguish this graph those so I narrowed the limits for a closer look:

Click the image to open in full size.

So what have a gathered from this test and analysis today?

1) P27 is really doing well up to around 15-16Khz which is fine by me
2) P29 is weaker in the upper range, and sounds more laid back thanks to this
3) The Dayton is showing the bump up above a flat response like before and like it is in the published datasheet.

But wait, there is more today than just this!

P29 was also testing a different flexible filament to see if I could increase compliance and this was a success as well. Testing with low frequencies showed it was moving more freely than P27 is, and it's compliance come in around 0.7mm/N vs the other materials 0.5mm/N. This is vital to help lower the Q value of my driver.

So we have a good frequency response. We have 80dB@1W/1M in reach as well. It fits nicely into printed and sealed cabinets, and it is competing well too in day to day use. Whats next?

The developments from here are tweaking the design to lower mass further, and increase compliance a bit more if I can. Getting the Qts value below 1 is the final goal.

How does P27 sound compared to the Dayton PS95 in the same size cabinet?

P27 sounds to be a little more laid back than the PS95, but not by much. If you have listened to a Mark Audio Alpair 6 or 7, and the PS95 you'll know what I mean. I listen to P27 for hours at a time with no fatigue from the driver or my ears.

P27 due to it's lower 80dB @ 1W vs PS95 85dB @ 1W, and the high Q value, the bass response is significantly higher and in doing so, feels like a bigger driver than the PS95. Listening to something like the MGS2 intro on P27 sounds more full bodied than the PS95 does.

What kind of power handling and XmaX are we looking at with P27/P29?

My design uses a underhung voice coil design and a radically different magnet motor. The underhung design was chosen so I did not need to wind the voice coil cleanly. This is important to me so other people can make the voice coil themselves without a need for panic or stress. The space is sufficient for a messy voice coil and the glue used works perfectly at filling any voids. Inductance tests of multiple voice coils has come out very close. Well within industry tolerances

To the actual question, current designs have a Xmax of 1.25mm, or 2.5mm Peak to Peak. This is not the full story however for a few reasons.

1) The steel tube means that beyond this the magnetic flux density does not fall off a cliff, and is fairly linear, so distortion levels will not jump suddenly.

2) The magnet motor is modular and you can adjust the magnets and other parts TO YOUR TASTE!

If you want you can drop that Xmax down 0.5mm, but gain another 6% power. Possibly your using it in a FAST system and want to extract what you can.

If you want, you can increase Xmax up to 2.2mm, and lose 11% power but you really want to extract as much low end or SPL as you can from the driver

What other driver can do that!? (seriously if you know one, please let me know!)

Actual total power before heat issues varies on the cone material. At the moment my testing has been up to 10W without a issue. A typical cabinet 3 to 6L vented or sealed will result in 3-5W before Xmax is reach on the default design I am using. I want to have some headroom for FAST based setups however

How low is this driver tuning down to?

The design is constantly altering, but the current design in a 3.3L enclosure is producing an F3 of around 48-52Hz, and a F10 of around 42-46Hz. Staying around 50Hz is the target. The Dayton PS95 in comparison has a F3 of around 65-68Hz.

How far are you from getting to a complete product?

Answer is very close! It will be launching as a kickstarter campaign to gauge interest and will go from there. I won't launch it however until I have added my mass reduction tweaks and improved compliance to lower that Qts value.

Oh, and it will launch with 2 drivetrain choices, which will expand further.

What kind of pricing is expected from this driver?

Current target is the same as when I started which is £35. This is a tad on the higher side, but with its interchangeable drivetrain and phase plug, along with a modular magnet motor, I feel it is the right place.

Where did the idea of making your own driver come from?

The idea came from the fustration of not being able to tweak this part of the system, and building countless numbers of speaker cabinets to learn from. I want FD61 to not just be a competitive driver, but be the learners and tweakers driver of choice! Also who else allows you to make your own driver!? Your making your own crossovers and cabinets. Wouldn't it be refreshing to get this hands on!?

and....thats the update for now. Tweaks have already been made to my design whilst these parts have been made and assembled. I very much appreciate all the support, questions, queries, doubts and considerations you all bring to the project, and hope the update has been helpful.

Paul
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Old 22nd September 2019, 05:04 PM   #54
Spike415 is offline Spike415  United Kingdom
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Default Phase Plug Test

Today I made 3 different different phase plugs and fitted them to my current design to look at how much it effects the frequency response head on. The difference should be more effected at an angle, but still I wanted to see the results.

To make it simpler for anyone wondering, the differences was very small. Still if you want to see the result, feel free to see this below. I am looking for input on what people prefer style wise whilst I am doing more tests in this area.

So first up is the indented dome:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

The blue line is the indented design, whilst the red is with no phase plug. Only real notable mention is the slight extension of 2-3dB at around 15-16khz.

Next one is the big dome:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

The dip at around 12Khz is improved a bit and the same improvement at 15-16khz i also there

Finally the Radial design:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

The least impact of the designs. The improvement at 15-16khz continues so that means this frequency must of been cancelling itself out.

I will look at doing more tests soon at an angle to see what difference there is there too. I am working on a revised motor design. Not effecting the work I have so far. More moving bits to help reduce moving mass.

Paul
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Old 29th September 2019, 02:47 PM   #55
Spike415 is offline Spike415  United Kingdom
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Default P30 - First version might finally be here!

Hello Everyone

For P30 I decided to take my very aggressive shallow cone profile and reduce this in a bit in the hope to extend the high frequency performance just a little more.

Click the image to open in full size.

Colours were just to stop me from running out of specific colours. Would you all prefer a black basket, or something different like silver?

Click the image to open in full size.

The white line is FD61

The Blue line is PS95

As you can see, performance all the way to 9Khz is very close. Then the Dayton goes up above the flat response where as FD61 does so with less exaggeration, rolling off from about 14Khz but where P29 @ 20hz was 17dB off the PS95 where as this new design is only 8dB off and PS95 at 20khz is a little above flat SPL,

Using the PS95 drive for comparison, I am very happy that the frequency response is there. SPL is on the lower end of what I would like, but stronger magnets will gain some of this. I will also be testing with a lighter material and check the frequency performance of it as well.

How does it sound in person?

P30 is sounding very good and not harsh on the ear over longer use. Output is clear and crisp, as have the last few iterations and it doesn't feel lacking across a range of genres.

I have also created my first attempt at a datasheet for this driver. People following along know this will vary on drivetrain too, so I will create one of these for each. Feedback is greatly appreciated!

Click the image to open in full size.

So this development thread is now coming to an end and kickstarter side will be worked on. If your reading this, interested but would like to see something added or altered, now is the time to mention it for consideration.

Paul
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Old 30th September 2019, 02:37 AM   #56
CraigSu is offline CraigSu  United States
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Paul, I’m guessing Paul McGowan of PS Audio recently answered a question you submitted:

YouTube

Wanted to post it in case you missed it. Given his description I can’t imagine there’s another Paul in London 3D printing his own driver.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:02 AM   #57
Spike415 is offline Spike415  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigSu View Post
Paul, Iím guessing Paul McGowan of PS Audio recently answered a question you submitted:

YouTube

Wanted to post it in case you missed it. Given his description I canít imagine thereís another Paul in London 3D printing his own driver.
Hello CraigSu

Thank you for the message and yes I actually did miss this whilst being so eager to get the next build done and testing each stage. If the driver can make a impact once it launches I would love to get into building and designing an amplifier for it and other drivers out there, and had that question in mind when it comes to designing an amplifier. One stage at a time.

Im not really sure how many other people out there are attempting what I am doing. Most DIY drivers are larger for larger applications and anything with 3D printed components I have found doesn't have any data to go with it or sound particularly loud / clear. I would be very interested to see others as I really believe there is a lot of potential by going this route.

Paul
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Old 30th September 2019, 08:32 PM   #58
Spike415 is offline Spike415  United Kingdom
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Default Gale vs Dayton Audio vs Polymate 3D

Hello everyone again

Today is not data and graphs and what is next. Today is my best attempt to allow you all to see what this 3D printed speaker is capable off against competition.

In this video, FD61 P30 is running up against a pair of Gale 3010S bookshelf speakers and the Dayton Audio PS95. Each driver runs for approximately 1.5 minutes. I have my own opinions on the comparison, but I want to see what you all think.

The recording was done off a DH-500 amplifier and Blue Snowball, where the other recordings and video was done off my Pixel smartphone.

YouTube

The final part for today was to get some recording done of vocals as I know this has been lacking until now. Hope you enjoy.

YouTube

I will keep my opinion back to not effect any results. I value all of your opinions.

Paul
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Old 1st October 2019, 06:08 PM   #59
zman01 is online now zman01  Bangladesh
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Polymate3D FD61 - 3D Printed Full Range Speaker Driver- In development
Paul,

Good stuff. I've listened to the recordings.

Have a question - does the driver T&S parameters indicate that the 3.3L box give a good frequency response? Sorry if this has already been covered earlier in the thread.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:58 PM   #60
Spike415 is offline Spike415  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zman01 View Post
Paul,

Good stuff. I've listened to the recordings.

Have a question - does the driver T&S parameters indicate that the 3.3L box give a good frequency response? Sorry if this has already been covered earlier in the thread.
Hello zman

Thanks for listening. I know it's not the best but what did you think?

In relation to the question, no it has not been covered. Mainly due to how much the T&S parameters have been changing. I have some results for you to make an opinion from. I would love to have a lower Q than the current designs, but if I can get close to 1.0 I will be happy.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...a8&oe=5E2CF19E

This is how the current design works in the cabinet I have made. I picked 3.3L for my enclosure size as it allows it to be 3D printed nicely and give me some space to style my design.

The power output off the motor should increase when I move from my current N35 magnets to N50. My FEMM simuation predicted 2.17Tm for N35 and I measured 2.16Tm, so I am confident with this side of things now. The final power should be more like 2.50Tm, which looks like this:

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...21&oe=5E3221F9

If I was building with wood I would usually build such drivers into a cabinet 6 to 9L in size, and at 9L the result is this:

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...54&oe=5E2FE7A9

And then finally how it performs in a little 0.8L sealed cabinet with heavy infill. This is more to allow people not in the diy audio field to have a quick and easy entry point where even a 120x120x120mm 3D printer will allow them to make the cabinet and buy the driver as a kit and get there toes wet. This simulates like this:

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...6a&oe=5E35B683

So I have made FD61 to potentially work from 1L up to around 12L, enabling it to be possible in:

Bluetooth Speakers
Smart Sound Speakers
Soundbars
Small Bookshelf Speakers

The market has a lot of focus on bigger driver units, but here in the UK room sizes are on the smaller side, and these product ranges are where the most people have an interest in buying something. I want FD61 to cater to many types of people, from new to people like myself who would love to be able to work directly with the driver, and not have it be a fixed component within speaker projects.

Cost wise I am still targetting £35 for a single driver kit, and want to launch with 2 different drivetrain choices to allow you to pick which one you prefer both look and sound wise. I would make another video with both running in the same cabinet for comparison

Any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask away. I by no means know everything....far far from it. I want to do everything I can to make FD61 a success.
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