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Yet another IDS-25 clone?
Yet another IDS-25 clone?
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Old 14th April 2019, 07:13 PM   #1
anchorman is offline anchorman
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Default Yet another IDS-25 clone?

Iíve fallen deep into this rabbit hole after stumbling the other day onto roger russellís website. I need to experience this for myself, so figured I should start my own design/build thread.

Iíve read pretty deep into wesaysoís trials and tribulations, and learned a fair bit about a few major pitfalls...

Lots of places to start here, the drivers being one. Iíve got some looking to do and to decide what is the best price to quality ratio that I can afford at the moment. The Dayton audio PC83-8 looks like a possibility, along with the ubiquitous Vifa speakers used in the original and by many others.

Iím planning at the moment to go with a simpler design than the two black towers. Iíve done enough woodworking to know not to fight the natural inclinations of wood, and I also donít want to turn so much material into sawdust, even though I can get Baltic birch ply for very good prices (cheaper than all the home center crappy ply by a good margin). I prefer dark woods like mahogany and walnut, but need to figure what I want to live with. Laminating steel or aluminum to wood is also an option, and would deter the cats from using it as a pair of monumental scratching posts Iím a sculptor by training, so iím looking at this as an opportunity to build a functional piece of art, though function and good sound are more important to me, I will have to look at these things.
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Old 14th April 2019, 07:22 PM   #2
anchorman is offline anchorman
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In terms of internal volume, I see numbers of about 2 liters per driver for these speakers. Is there a reason not to go larger?

I’ve got a mind to simply build the tapered box that roger Russell did for his, but am also considering the things that can be done cutting groves into the wood and bending it around internal bracing. Over such a great height as 8 feet, I’m not interested in the pitfalls of stackable design, even though I’ve got a CNC router that would make the parts for me relatively effortlessly.

How much advantage is there to making an interior surface with irregular surface? I plan to use fiberglass batts inside for damping, so wonder if the extra effort of making the irregular surface brings noticeable added benefits? I imagine on an empty cabinet, it would make a lot more difference than a stuffed one.

I’m also curious about how much effort to put into the baffles inside between the drivers. Do I want that space relatively open and connected, or is it better to make the drivers more isolated from one another? I can easily make baffles/braces with any size, number, and shape of holes between them. Do these holes between the braces need the extra effort of rounded smooth edges, or can they be left square/as cut?
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Old 14th April 2019, 07:26 PM   #3
anchorman is offline anchorman
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I’ll hopefully have some initial drawings/models later tonight or tomorrow to illustrate my questions/concerns. Regarding the design.
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Old 14th April 2019, 08:09 PM   #4
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Yet another IDS-25 clone?
Want to make something even better than Mr Russell's IDS-25? Just read the tome or textbook on the topic by Wesayso in this thread:

The making of: The Two Towers (a 25 driver Full Range line array)

There is a recipe in there and if you follow it, you will be rewarded with, and I kid not, perhaps the finest sounding speaker in the world, anywhere, any price. I have heard it myself and it is simply staggering and mind blowing what the sound quality and realism is like.

But there are a lot of fine details and much of it requires real time DSP to realize. A lot of it requires room treatments. Lot's of little things that when all pieced together, yield a sum greater than their parts.
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Last edited by xrk971; 14th April 2019 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 14th April 2019, 09:18 PM   #5
anchorman is offline anchorman
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I’ve read pretty deep in, and unfortunately because it’s gotten so long, there’s a lot to sort through in order to get to the information that is most helpful. If for some reason I decided to go with a stacked design, I would do it without the rods. The wood ought to be plenty strong without them, and it can then move as it wants to. Front mounting plate/baffle could be made out of wood and remain plenty strong, but if done from wood, it would need to be oriented the same way as the wood in the stack so that they could all move together. His stuff looks and probably sounds magnificent, but I don’t think that comes necessarily from the fiberglass reinforcement that he did to keep the column from expanding and shrinking with humidity changes. A properly designed wood/MDF/particle board enclosure can be built without the fiberglass. It’s tempting to make from solid wood, since it wouldn’t move appreciably in the length, only across its width, but I don’t think it would have as good damping properties as equivalent engineered wood products would have. Part of me wants to go with minimalist boxes that could be painted the same as the walls, and mounted directly to the wall on a bracket that would allow them to be rotated. There definitely going to take up a lot of space visually even though physical footprint is very small.
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Old 14th April 2019, 09:53 PM   #6
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Yet another IDS-25 clone?
I think the physical cabinet and mounting is less important than the digital processing. As long as the drivers are solidly mounted and diffraction and back reflections inside the cabinet is kept to a minimum, you are fine. Maybe Wesayso can make a index for his thread with links to the key parts.
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Old 14th April 2019, 10:44 PM   #7
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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Another line array build...

I have recorded most of my journey here, in my thread. This is going to be your journey, so that means your decisions. I do not regret anything I've done, however there were a couple of lessons to learn.

If I were you (and I'm not) I'd build a free standing array so you can play with positioning to get the least amount of early reflections while still keeping the help in the bass department from the wall behind it. Some shuffling and rotating of the end product might be involved to get the best results.

My credo has been: every little detail is important. I wanted to build something that could do better than good. So I've thought about it for over a year, reading every paper and article I could get my hands on. Based on that info, I started planning my build.

I'd say try and keep diffraction in mind for the design, also test your enclosure idea by making a single driver box first and see how you can clean up the impedance of one speaker driver in that box.

I highly recommend the Vifa TC9 FD18-08, it won't be easy to top that driver. If you want something even closer to the IDS, than the TG9 FD 10-08 would be hard to beat. That would be the 8 ohm driver's name, the 4 ohm variant usually is easier to get a hold off, but I'd recommend the 8 ohm version. For a smaller driver (better to combat combing) the (more expensive) SB65WBAC25-4 gets a lot of traction these days. It is quite a bit smaller than the Vifa/Peerless drivers (good for high frequency, maybe bad if you want the bottom octaves to come out of the array).

Many other drivers have been used, it will be your call. I'd say listen to it, whatever you choose, you're going to get it back on steroids in an array .

You can find many threads on arrays here on the forum, lots to read! Take your time and don't rush in, if all goes well it just may be the last speaker you ever need.
Look around your room, where would they fit? How can you place them? If you want to limit/absorb early reflections, would it be possible with some simple panels?
Think of your room with the speakers as a system designed to work together. With some care you can do better than the IDS.

Above all else: have fun!
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Last edited by wesayso; 14th April 2019 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 15th April 2019, 12:03 AM   #8
anchorman is offline anchorman
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I was just looking at drivers, and this little guy popped up: Aurasound NSW1-205-8A 1" Extended Range

High Frequency response curve looks a lot cleaner than many others, and other than the 15db or so dip between 30-200hz, seems to look pretty good on paper. That kind of dip seems like it would be easier to smooth out with equalization boost, or maybe some way of porting it? I know this is stealing away from original intent, but seems like an interesting driver, in that it is so small, and one could cram so many into an 8’ space

The other thing I’m strongly considering is to do the line array with subwoofer for lowest bass notes. I don’t watch a lot of tv/movies, but maybe I’d do more if I had capable speakers.

I want to keep the equalizing analog, mostly to reduce complication in the amount of equipment I need. I feel confident that I can build those components well enough to satisfy my listening needs. Digital signal processing is a rabbit hole i’m Not willing to go down at the moment.

I’m going to order a few drivers and see what I like, and see where this takes me. The little 1” drivers from aurasound are a little pricey for what I want to spend on this project at the moment, but I’m interested to see what can be done with 1 inch “woofers”. The travel on them is seems very big for something that small, and I’m curious to see what they will do without blowing up.

Part of me is thinking to just buy a bunch of the cheapest 3” speakers, and throw something together out of MDF just to see what they sound like. The hardest part in building is going to be cutting 25+ holes per speaker in the front baffle, and this is a relatively trivial job with the CNC router. I should probably go minimalist like this, and see if I can eek out a set of speakers from a single piece of MDF. Refine and tweak from there.
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Old 15th April 2019, 10:22 AM   #9
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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I'll tell you that the TC series wouldn't be a bad choice. It is a great mid way to have everything in a single speaker. That 1" may seem fun, but won't have the midrange potential of the original idea behind this speaker. Let alone the bottom end. It still is somewhat of a compromise, but one I'm most willing to accept.
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Old 15th April 2019, 11:08 AM   #10
fluid is offline fluid  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anchorman View Post
High Frequency response curve looks a lot cleaner than many others, and other than the 15db or so dip between 30-200hz, seems to look pretty good on paper. That kind of dip seems like it would be easier to smooth out with equalization boost, or maybe some way of porting it?
The dip is not a dip it is the driver rolling off from 300Hz down you can equalize it in the same way as the TC9 but more EQ would be required due to the higher rolloff point.

The TC9 is a pretty special driver for the price, it has good and smooth off axis response, many have looked for other drivers but it is hard to beat for this application.

2 litres is about the right volume for it, due to the high Qts of the driver it takes much more volume to have any real effect which makes the cabinet impractical.

The effort and cost of other components needed to get a line array built makes it not worth doing with drivers any cheaper than the TC9, when buying 50+ the price is quite good.

Analogue EQ will only get you so far, I have heard mine with varying levels of EQ from a rough guess to the full wesayso treatment, the full EQ treatment really makes an improvement.

I don't know if you have seen my thread but it may be helpful as mine was CNC cut out of MDF Full Range TC9 Line Array CNC Cabinet It also ended up being quite long
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