Going DIY to try to build against a manufacturer is just never worth it. The only thing DIY'ers can compete is on design (volume sellers don't sell funky designs). The Markaudio designs are a great example of this: mainstream builders don't make nice full range driver speakers. Box materials or time consuming processes: despite all the marketing drivel the KEF is still an MDF box with a plastic front. Getting nice veneers and quality plywood is something mainstream manufacturers rarely do.
So, using FR drivers to emulate the KEF's will just yield a very nice single driver speaker (if properly build), not a KEF clone.
MA drivers vs KEF LS50 loudspeakers
Hi, all.
After a long hiatus, though I'd drop in. And as I have more than a month comparing the two with various amplifiers, I think I can get to the crux of the comparison.
For your information comparisons were done with my nephew's LS50s and my prime sized "Fonkens" with MA CHR70 (original version). Amplifiers included a custom "M Ref amp", a DIY PASS Firstwatt F6(?), a McCormack DNA 0.5 deLuxe, and a DIY PASS V-fet. Sources included a non-hirez stream via a Chord Mojo headphone amp/DAC, else (specifically) an old Heybrook TT2/Xenon arm with a beat M44 Shure cartridge and the "My Ref" or McCormack amplifiers. Preamp when used was a CM Labs FET full function preamp.
Okay so here are my impressions (completely subjective). Initially the LS50s slaughtered the little MA/Fonken speakers. The KEFs play quite low and I never felt the need to use a sub, nor did I want to. The soundstage was acceptable, with good width, depth, but lacking a little in height. They seemed clean, quick and capable of an astounding amount of bass given their size. They are a little grumpy and good old traditional amplifiers like my DNA 0.5 seem well suited to them.But they sounded somewhat "disjointed" ...
... when compared to the little MA/Fonken speakers. If I didn't have the twp speakers to directly compare I'm not sure I would have preferred one to the other. But everything changed when I added a KEF sub that I have laying around. Everything improved with the MA/Fonkens, particularly the soundstage. And they sounded more like music to me.
Not sure what the efficiencies are for either, but to me it seems that they are in the same basic "class" of low efficiency designs. The two pairs of enclosures are similar enough in size that the neither would dominate a small room. The difference is the added room required for the sub. Given her druthers, my lovely bride (now in our 37th year together), would prefer the KEFs simply because no sub is required. But I feel that with the sub (not necessarily a KEF ,but a reasonable quality, properly tuned and implemented subwoofer) the MA/Fonkens are superior.
I only heard the PAS amps for limited time. Also had opportunity to compare the KEFs to Mordaunt Short Avant 6 (a compact 2 1/2 way floor standing speaker) loudspeakers. On some amps the nod went to the MS speakers, on others the KEFs won out. I never listened to the PASS DIY amps and the MA/Fonkens together.
Hope it helps
Hi, all.
After a long hiatus, though I'd drop in. And as I have more than a month comparing the two with various amplifiers, I think I can get to the crux of the comparison.
For your information comparisons were done with my nephew's LS50s and my prime sized "Fonkens" with MA CHR70 (original version). Amplifiers included a custom "M Ref amp", a DIY PASS Firstwatt F6(?), a McCormack DNA 0.5 deLuxe, and a DIY PASS V-fet. Sources included a non-hirez stream via a Chord Mojo headphone amp/DAC, else (specifically) an old Heybrook TT2/Xenon arm with a beat M44 Shure cartridge and the "My Ref" or McCormack amplifiers. Preamp when used was a CM Labs FET full function preamp.
Okay so here are my impressions (completely subjective). Initially the LS50s slaughtered the little MA/Fonken speakers. The KEFs play quite low and I never felt the need to use a sub, nor did I want to. The soundstage was acceptable, with good width, depth, but lacking a little in height. They seemed clean, quick and capable of an astounding amount of bass given their size. They are a little grumpy and good old traditional amplifiers like my DNA 0.5 seem well suited to them.But they sounded somewhat "disjointed" ...
... when compared to the little MA/Fonken speakers. If I didn't have the twp speakers to directly compare I'm not sure I would have preferred one to the other. But everything changed when I added a KEF sub that I have laying around. Everything improved with the MA/Fonkens, particularly the soundstage. And they sounded more like music to me.
Not sure what the efficiencies are for either, but to me it seems that they are in the same basic "class" of low efficiency designs. The two pairs of enclosures are similar enough in size that the neither would dominate a small room. The difference is the added room required for the sub. Given her druthers, my lovely bride (now in our 37th year together), would prefer the KEFs simply because no sub is required. But I feel that with the sub (not necessarily a KEF ,but a reasonable quality, properly tuned and implemented subwoofer) the MA/Fonkens are superior.
I only heard the PAS amps for limited time. Also had opportunity to compare the KEFs to Mordaunt Short Avant 6 (a compact 2 1/2 way floor standing speaker) loudspeakers. On some amps the nod went to the MS speakers, on others the KEFs won out. I never listened to the PASS DIY amps and the MA/Fonkens together.
Hope it helps
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Exactly my experience, glad I'm not the only one. Someone really should do more research on this "togetherness"-aspect of full range drivers.
also, I wonder how the bass of the MA drivers improves when put in a frugel horn, and if a sub is necessary with them.
No, edge diffraction is a different problem altogether, that plays out on the other end of the spectrum, so round away! Many MA designs (like the ones Dave does) have beveled/round edges.
Ok thanks I've gotten that mixed up. Its a lot to learn in this speaker building hobby
@rjbell,
Go with the Alpair 7's if you can. Before they are all sold out (now out of production). We run ours in a little sealed 11l box and they sound amazing. I think night and day better than the KEF's but I haven't done a fair comparison, only hearing the KEF's at bad and noisy hi-fi rooms.
Did you say you're in wales? If you want to build really nice boxes, really easily, check out Avon Plywood and their cutting service.
We use Valchromat for ours and it works well. You can see a few on our instagram @ootwdesignstudio. In fact I think I have about 3 cabinets for the Alpair 7 in parts but ready to be built up, but I can't source any gold drivers and not too keen on the silvers, so they will probably go in the fire in the next few months, if you want a pair let me know.
Go with the Alpair 7's if you can. Before they are all sold out (now out of production). We run ours in a little sealed 11l box and they sound amazing. I think night and day better than the KEF's but I haven't done a fair comparison, only hearing the KEF's at bad and noisy hi-fi rooms.
Did you say you're in wales? If you want to build really nice boxes, really easily, check out Avon Plywood and their cutting service.
We use Valchromat for ours and it works well. You can see a few on our instagram @ootwdesignstudio. In fact I think I have about 3 cabinets for the Alpair 7 in parts but ready to be built up, but I can't source any gold drivers and not too keen on the silvers, so they will probably go in the fire in the next few months, if you want a pair let me know.
I would have to disagree on Alpair 7 part. I do not own LS50, but have heard them and the Alpairs really did not live up to hype around here and the measurements I've done agree. The box tested is a 7L inverter box.
VituixCAD plots for off axis measurements
THD 85 dBSPL @ 1m
THD 90 dBSPL @ 1m
THD 95 dBSPL @ 1m
VituixCAD plots for off axis measurements
THD 85 dBSPL @ 1m
THD 90 dBSPL @ 1m
THD 95 dBSPL @ 1m
Attachments
Beautiful work on your instagram page. I've just enrolled in college for bench joiner course in the hopes to do something similar to you in the future. In fact i'm pretty surprised and a bit disheartened the similarities
.Yes i'm in wales and have heard about Avon Plywood i'll check there site out thanks.
I think the 7 would be a good place to start in regards to price performance. I have some concerns regarding them being delicate. I have kids in the house.
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Nothing special?
I think the massive breakup at 1.5kHz, and the dip at 6.2kHz (cone shape?) are pretty special.
Add the fact that they drop like a brick at 12kHz, and that being on axis?
I thought I remembered seeing that FR response before, I wasn't sure where.
Good to know. Maybe why they are discontinued?
Nothing special?
I think the massive breakup at 1.5kHz, and the dip at 6.2kHz (cone shape?) are pretty special.
Add the fact that they drop like a brick at 12kHz, and that being on axis?
I thought I remembered seeing that FR response before, I wasn't sure where.
Good to know. Maybe why they are discontinued?
ok maybe i won't buy them then!
I have both, the KEF's are a little tweaked and the Alpair 7.3s are in a small, low diffraction bass reflex. Its unfair to say one presentation is better than the other, they are just different. Chocolate or strawberries? They are both very nice, you have to choose which set of compromises suit you best, both come with their own sound. Both are thoroughly musical and engage me, but the LS50's are my default preference in MY room with MY setup. I have heard the LS50's sound really very ordinary many times. They only sing with a top flight source and capable amp. Don't even think about less than 100W. The Alpairs are much more easy going.
LS50 Pros:
Good tonal balance, good downward dynamic range, very good soundstage width and depth. Decent bass extension. Amazing integration for a multiway speaker. HF resolution better than the Alpair.
LS50 Cons,
Bass can be a little one note. Slightly dark tonal balance. Not quite as coherent through the midrange as the Alpair.
Alpair Pros
Totally coherent presentation through the mid. Tuneful bass. Very good downward dynamic range. Good image width.
Alpair Cons
Limited bass reach. Needs a wall nearby to sound tonally balanced. HF detail not as good as the LS50. Soundstage not as deep as LS50.
LS50 Pros:
Good tonal balance, good downward dynamic range, very good soundstage width and depth. Decent bass extension. Amazing integration for a multiway speaker. HF resolution better than the Alpair.
LS50 Cons,
Bass can be a little one note. Slightly dark tonal balance. Not quite as coherent through the midrange as the Alpair.
Alpair Pros
Totally coherent presentation through the mid. Tuneful bass. Very good downward dynamic range. Good image width.
Alpair Cons
Limited bass reach. Needs a wall nearby to sound tonally balanced. HF detail not as good as the LS50. Soundstage not as deep as LS50.
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Some measurements and impressions from another forum:
Alpair 6.2P & 7.3M / Scan-Speak 10F DIY speakers | Super Best Audio Friends
Alpair 6.2P & 7.3M / Scan-Speak 10F DIY speakers | Super Best Audio Friends
I would remind people that having seen many measures of these drivers and they all have differences. I would not put any weight on 1 particular measure — keep in mind that if you want something different looking move the mic 1". The one shown is one of th eleast representitive i have seen. I hold to what Floyd Tole says — any measurement taken outside an anechoic chamber is suspect (he used stronger words) and even those can be misleading.
The A7 has some peakiness off-axis. If you move off-axis it dissappears and if you are older you won’t hear it anyway. They have really good midrange with a high DDR and the seamlessness that comes with most FRs and is so often missing once an XO is put into the critical range.
Trust your ears.
To quote Floyd Toole:
dave
The A7 has some peakiness off-axis. If you move off-axis it dissappears and if you are older you won’t hear it anyway. They have really good midrange with a high DDR and the seamlessness that comes with most FRs and is so often missing once an XO is put into the critical range.
Trust your ears.
To quote Floyd Toole:
dave
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