Yeah, I’ve heard enough models of the MA line to understand there could be some that for some folks might be “not quite my cup of tea”, but that vociferous a reaction does seem bit unusual.
There certainly have been some poorly designed enclosures I’ve built over the years that definitely deserved the bonfire solution, but until it can be determined that the drivers in question are defective, I’d be inclined to “re-gift” them to a third party before resorting to that extreme.
FWIW, if I was to name “the worst sounding”, or at least “didn’t meet the hype” name brand driver, it’d have to be a Lowther in conical front loaded horn - supported by 15” woofer in bass bin, but I’d never counsel their incineration.
There certainly have been some poorly designed enclosures I’ve built over the years that definitely deserved the bonfire solution, but until it can be determined that the drivers in question are defective, I’d be inclined to “re-gift” them to a third party before resorting to that extreme.
FWIW, if I was to name “the worst sounding”, or at least “didn’t meet the hype” name brand driver, it’d have to be a Lowther in conical front loaded horn - supported by 15” woofer in bass bin, but I’d never counsel their incineration.
If you like the effortless sound then maybe you should catch on to using pro audio drivers. I'm not affiliated in any way with this company but they have some very good designs that I'm sure would sound amazing. Many of my DIY projects use pro audio drivers. B&C is a very good brand, including Beyma and BMS.
Denovo Audio Maximus-12 Speaker Kit
Lately though I've been going back to smaller drivers because I have a small listening room in my new house. So it's opened up some new possibilities for using smaller format drivers.
Denovo Audio Maximus-12 Speaker Kit
Lately though I've been going back to smaller drivers because I have a small listening room in my new house. So it's opened up some new possibilities for using smaller format drivers.
I posted links to 3rd party FR plots of two MA drivers. Both of the plots clearly show multiple treble dips peaks, up to 10dB. The response is demonstrably rough. I see nothing "strange" or "sour grapes" about hearing something that clearly exists (in at least some models).
I previously bought & tried to like some ~similar drivers (Wharfedale and Fostex), and found the flaws too hard to live with. They aren't for everyone.
I have seen lots of 3rd party MA measures, and no 2 tell the same story.
The listening — not only us — shows that the drivers are certainly well liked.
There is certainly room for different tastes, implementations, rooms, etc. Most FRs have some HF anomalies, so it is not surprising that the MAs have some.
Too my mind a case of the measures not showing the whole story, the wrong story, or are just flawed.
dave
Fully aware. My point is that fasteddy may well be right when he said they sounded rough. Some MA drivers do measure very rough. If he had a pair like that, and if his hearing was acute enough to detect it, then what he is reporting is 100% accurate.
Yes.
I think the measurements do tell part of the story.
IMO, the listener's musical tastes, age & degree of hearing loss are also a part of the story.
e.g. if two people:
-a retiree whose hearing is -40dB at 8kHz
-a younger person with undamaged hearing
...both listen to a speaker with HF peaks, I see nothing confusing about them reaching different conclusions.
I tried to build a system based around 10" Wharfedales when I was about 25, and I remember using ska (lots of HF harmonics in brass instruments) to test them. That's a bad combo to both trigger and detect those HF spikes. But I'm not surprised that other people like them.
Attachments
One of our listeners has bat ears, and he has never commented on the HF of any of the Mark Audios he has had the opportunity to listen too.
And re an earlier post. Your experience of Fostex & Whafedale are not in any way transferrable to other drivers. FRs enjoy the same range as other drivers in going from crap to sublime.
dave
My reply was intended to fasteddy13.
I've seen those measurements you linked to, having not heard the 10P or the CHS 70 I can not really comment, and I do not know anything about the measurement conditions, even a small uneven surface close to the mic can cause disturbances.
The most obvious comparison might be where mr Gravesen compares the Vifa XT25TG flush mounted vs in a baffle with just a hole for the magnet. If there is a lack of detailed knowledge of how and when the measurements where done, it is impossible to have an opinion about whether they can be trusted or not.
Loudspeaker Measurements
But the 12PW is intended as a woofer, the top end *should* roll off, it is not a "FR" unit. And fasteddy13's impression is just very far away from what performance I would expect from the 12PW.
My assumption would be: either there's something off with the boxes, or there's something wrong with the drivers. But again, I can only assume, never having heard these drivers myself.
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The recent discussion about the value of measurements does make me wonder how important they really are. One microphone at a point in space doesn't seem to compare favourably to two ears and brain with all the averaging that goes on when it comes to determining how a pair of speakers sound in a room?
True
I have a pair of these Jordan Eikona - E J Jordan Designs all be it the first version, the rising response suits my old ears, and where it falls off, they are shot anyway.
I have a pair of these Jordan Eikona - E J Jordan Designs all be it the first version, the rising response suits my old ears, and where it falls off, they are shot anyway.
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And I am very happy with these:
SOVEREIGN 15-300TC
The only adjustment I am running right now is a -5db (?) notch relatively centered around 2khz somewhere. On axis looks a little bit peaky, but +/- 10 to 40 degrees is very good looking.
SOVEREIGN 15-300TC
The only adjustment I am running right now is a -5db (?) notch relatively centered around 2khz somewhere. On axis looks a little bit peaky, but +/- 10 to 40 degrees is very good looking.
An idea that might have even predated that statement by Dr Toole. Anecdotally, I remember Terry and Don answering some of my questions 40yrs ago with “Oh, you just read Absolute Sound Issue #nn didn’t you? Listen to this/these, and just trust your ears”. A strategy that sold a boatload of gear, as I think you can recall.
edit: the Friday night after hours exercising of world’s oldest tweak didn’t impeded that process either.
edit: the Friday night after hours exercising of world’s oldest tweak didn’t impeded that process either.
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It makes sense to me to use a microphone to measure a drivers response outside in order to EQ any resonances, but when it comes to EQing indoors with two speakers it can only cause problems? Better to use directivity, dispersion, absorption and live with any left over anomalies? The exception would be cutting peaks due to room modes, and then do it by ear.
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