Hi, I'd like to get some suggestions for the best possible speaker options for my living room/dining area. My living room is about 23 ft by 20 ft with a high ceiling of around 30 ft. In terms of equipment I only have a Rega P3 for my turntable. I haven't bought an amp yet but I'll probably just get something that would work well with whatever speakers i end up getting. I figured I would first need to know what speaker design would work best in my living room. Size isn't really an issue but I just want something that would project well in the room considering the high ceiling so that the speakers would sound good whether I'm eating on the dining table, relaxing on the couch, or having many guests staying all over the living room. I'm not sure if I should go with towers or a horn or some other design. I could also go the diy route. I'm no engineer and I'm not very handy but there are several good and cheap carpenters/electricians where I am who could implement what I want as long as I give them detailed enough designs or plans. I'm looking to spend somewhere in the $1000 to $1500 range. Hope you guys can help
From a practical perspective, I doubt a wideband driver based speaker (which is what this section of the forum is based around) will be ideal for your requirements. I suggest you have a gander at some of these:
DISC-4
Jenzen CA
Poor Man'
Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5
Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower (available as a kit from Madisound)
http://speakerdesignworks.com/Anthology_1.html
These are all solid, practical designs that work well and will suit a range of tastes. I would also suggest it is worth looking at any of Jeff Bagby's larger designs.
DISC-4
Jenzen CA
Poor Man'
Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5
Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower (available as a kit from Madisound)
http://speakerdesignworks.com/Anthology_1.html
These are all solid, practical designs that work well and will suit a range of tastes. I would also suggest it is worth looking at any of Jeff Bagby's larger designs.
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Not sure why Scott is so dismissive of fullrange DIY?
There are plenty of designs within your budget with excellent off-axis behaviour and that are pretty easy to build.
For example:
Castle Microtower build
There are plenty of designs within your budget with excellent off-axis behaviour and that are pretty easy to build.
For example:
Castle Microtower build
Well, my initial response is no different since the 1st room mode will be ~565/30 = ~19 Hz, so will have ~zero room gain to help out on the low end, making a separate sub system pretty much mandatory.
Then there's treble loss over distance that the room size Vs listening distance implies, so while the new Fane 15" might work out with a 'rumble' [hi-pass] filter and a bit of EQ, big whizzer cone drivers tend to be an acquired taste, so not one I would feel comfortable recommending to a newbie that just joined.
Regardless, when someone posts wanting something that 'would project well in the room [considering the high ceiling]', this defacto becomes a horn based system from at least 1000 Hz - up and preferably 500 Hz since cone/dome systems don't 'project', so more prosound oriented and with this large a room the woofer will ideally need to be a 15" or dual horizontally opposed 12" for good polar response matching.
Unfortunately, the systems I'm most familiar with are well beyond his budget unless it's per speaker, so best I can recommend would be one of the Pi Speakers or DIY Sound Group's kits:
Pi Speakers - unmatched quality and state-of-the-art performance
DIY SOUND GROUP
GM
GM, I think that you misunderstood "projecting" as good imaging. Instead the OP said "so that the speakers would sound good whether I'm eating on the dining table, relaxing on the couch, or having many guests staying all over the living room."
I think that rules out horn speakers! Regular 3-way towers with only a shallow waveguide or really good dipole designs would suit. And because good dipoles tend to be active+dsp based, I would rule them out too.
That leaves us rather large 3-ways and 2-way (with max 5½" woofer) + subwoofer designs. And the rare omnis. Territory of multi-way forum...
I think that rules out horn speakers! Regular 3-way towers with only a shallow waveguide or really good dipole designs would suit. And because good dipoles tend to be active+dsp based, I would rule them out too.
That leaves us rather large 3-ways and 2-way (with max 5½" woofer) + subwoofer designs. And the rare omnis. Territory of multi-way forum...
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It's tragic, so it is, how dismissive I am about wideband drive units. World renowned hater. Never designed a speaker with them. Never will.
I ruled them out because when I read the post, in my opinion, they are not well suited to the requirements. A room of 23ft x 20ft with 30ft ceilings is an acoustically large space with little gain to provide assistance on the LF. The laws of physics dictate that the MicroTower you recommend (and I designed) for example with its single / pair of 4in drivers per channel will have no chance of shifting sufficient air in a space of that size. Equally, like GM, I am cautious about recommending large whizzer cone wideband units to people unfamilair with them. To give another example, having heard the 12in & 15in Fanes that are currently getting considerable attention, I can only say that whatever their merits, the appeal is lost on me; even off-axis and with sympathetic amplifiers, I find the top end extremely harsh compared to some other wideband units or quality dedicated HF drivers, be they compression units, domes, ring-radiators or planar variations. Others differ: power to them, but in cases like this, they are not an automatic recommendation from myself.
As far as projection goes, I'm with GM: you need multiway horns in these conditions & the PI speakers are probably the most affordable well-designed offerings available and easily built by people new to DIY audio. I considered adding them, but didn't due to the note about dispersion. I don't know how well the PI / DIY Sound Group systems perform off-axis; they might be very good, but without knowing for certain, I went with some larger systems that I'm more familiar with. Actually, I'd make a revision to my list: Troels's Disc4. It's using the R2604/8330 ring-radiator, & off-axis isn't brilliant with those. It could probably be modified with the D2604/8330 dome, but the crossover would need to be revised & the speaker revoiced due to the differing dispersion properties, which isn't something for an inexperienced builder. The issue here is size & budget. I'd like to recommend something with quality big woofers, maybe Altec derived, but that's not realistic with a $1K - $1.5K budget, and for all the attention they get, baffles with inexpensive woofers in that size region aren't the most acoustically efficient designs around, and like the large wideband units, can be an aquired taste so again, are not one of my automatic recommendations in cases like this.
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Scott, I know about you. Of course.
A Chuppy Tower should have enough raw shifting power.
A tower with the original EPI splay of the drivers would also work well into a corner, perhaps with some assistance from a sub.
A simple well placed sub or two should be well within the budget and requirements.
I have put a pair of towers with just one CHR driver in my sisters living room, that is of comparable size to this, and that works fine for the listening levels and requirements of a family of four, while also satisfying me when I visit.
You might think in terms of your wants, when I sense something a bit more mundane in terms of dynamics and bottom from the OP.
A Chuppy Tower should have enough raw shifting power.
A tower with the original EPI splay of the drivers would also work well into a corner, perhaps with some assistance from a sub.
A simple well placed sub or two should be well within the budget and requirements.
I have put a pair of towers with just one CHR driver in my sisters living room, that is of comparable size to this, and that works fine for the listening levels and requirements of a family of four, while also satisfying me when I visit.
You might think in terms of your wants, when I sense something a bit more mundane in terms of dynamics and bottom from the OP.
Not by my lights, which is why I made suggestions which reflect this opinion. You don't agree, which is fair enough. However, I am entitled to express it and it seems that I'm not alone in holding a similar view.
Providing a quasi-omni polar response is acceptable I'd agree, although certainly not, as far as I would be concerned, with 4in wideband drive units for acceptable dynamic range < c. 200Hz in a space that size. Nor does everybody like quasi-omni designs, so when in doubt or in the absence of additional information, the dinosaur here prefers to stick with conventional design practice of a quality monopole, which is familiar to most people and unlikely to polarise opinion, rather than some of the more esoteric options. Subwoofers can help, naturally, but can require more attention in setup, sometimes a lot more, so for people new to [DIY] audio an integrated solution is often easier to get up and running.
I do not consider the dynamic range and LF response of a pair of 4in CHRs even remotely adequate in a room of 13,800ft^3. 'A bit more mundane' is one thing; but in your zeal to state that I only think in terms of 'my' wants (I shall simply state that you are mistaken) you overlook the fact that what you find satisfying is no more or less a statement of your own wants or preferences. Nor is your 'sense' at present any more than a differing opinion. Therefore, without additional information, I prefer to follow my favoured engineering practice of making suggestions that have what I consider to be a reasonable amount in reserve to cover a range of potential requirements, rather than risking underspecification or excessive character, which is typically more difficult to address after the fact.
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I have for the last few months been listening to the Fane 15 inch full range with a Fane 15 inch low frequency driver on a 60x100 cm open baffle. I'm using a miniDSP to roll off the bass driver and an analog parametric eq on the full ranger. The 15 was a little harsh at first but over time has smoothed out and with a bit of eq delivers an effortless, full bodied sound that I find very appealing. The compromise is high frequency extension and dispersion but an efficient dome tweeter could help there. Big driver sound is addictive and now I can't imagine going back to a 6 inch bass driver. The Fanes are inexpensive and will fill a big room with a watt or two.
In a room that's even bigger than mine it doesn't with any horn systems I've built; well controlled directivity is a 'must have' performance criteria IME, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
GM
I found a guy around here who is selling some horns he bought from this engineer. It has 15 inch coral drivers in mini version VOT baffles with jbl 2426h buttcheeks concrete horn and 2402 alnico tweeter. He's selling it for about $1000. I have no idea what the actual design or dimensions are but I could go to his place to give it a try before buying. Could this possibly work for my space? Is it a good deal considering those drivers?
My listening experiences with "pa-style" two-ways with deep horns in domestic living rooms are not so good. Yes they can be very good at and near the spot, but not at dinner table (or in toilet).
This is because of the big difference in full space (3D) directivity (DI) below and above xo - ambient sound spectrum is lacking the treble. They may sound quite balanced in a highly reflective room (RT30 above 0,6 in treble F) but this kind of rooms are not wanted for hifi...
Most people are just used to this vanishing of treble because they haven't heard good omnis or dipoles.
Speaker directivity / off axis response: theory and measurement techniques - Acoustic Frontiers
3D3A Lab at Princeton University
This is because of the big difference in full space (3D) directivity (DI) below and above xo - ambient sound spectrum is lacking the treble. They may sound quite balanced in a highly reflective room (RT30 above 0,6 in treble F) but this kind of rooms are not wanted for hifi...
Most people are just used to this vanishing of treble because they haven't heard good omnis or dipoles.
Speaker directivity / off axis response: theory and measurement techniques - Acoustic Frontiers
3D3A Lab at Princeton University
Sounds like a good deal as Corals are highly prized for HIFI apps, ditto the JBL 2402 at least at one time, though there's better available now, but definitely audition them if for no other reason than to have some sort of horn related baseline. Note too that 'butt cheeks' were designed for near-field studio monitors IIRC, in which case a poor choice for the wide speaker spacing, large variable listening distances of your app.
GM
I get all that. You want to be cautious to not give the poor guy a bad first experience with DIY speakers.
But consider that he found his way in here.
That already says something about his personality, willingness to take risk and knowledge about basics.
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