Hi folks,
Just wondering what your thoughts are regarding these drivers for surround sound?
I have been reading this thread and see that Jason has simalar thoughts.
Background
We are having our fireplace replaced with a log burner and as such our lounge will be up for a re-vamp.
This is our main space for watching TV and movies. Nothing too trick just as Marantz SR5010 driving a set of Waterfall speakers in 5.1. (Hurricane FR, FL, RR, RL, Elora FC, Hurricane Sub). The sub is getting a little tired (flappy on real low end) and so I have been considering a replacement.
I have built a set of Frugel-Horns for my HiFi set and so are familiar with the Mark Audio drivers.
The lounge is 7.5mW x 3.98D x 2.275H. The TV is in the middle of the lounge with the main listening sofa 3.45m opposite with head height being approx 0.9m high.
The old fire place will be kept as a log store (maybe faux) and I was thinking of building a sub into the space. It is 800mmW x 655H x 400D.
I will be boxing out around the TV (Blue area in pic attached)
Speakers
For now I plan to keep the Hurricanes for the rears. I read here that it is estimated that a 5-5.5ltr sealed enclousre is recommended for the 11MS. The boxing out will have a depth of appox 100mm will that cause any strange effects for the cab if I use that?
It is recommended to have a 22-30deg tow-in for the FR & FL. I can arrange for this in build but do you thik it would be worth it given wide disperesion of the cones?
Finally the sub any thoughts here? Not sure where to start with that. I'm considering a commercial offering but that is not in the spirit of these forums.
TIA
Just wondering what your thoughts are regarding these drivers for surround sound?
I have been reading this thread and see that Jason has simalar thoughts.
Background
We are having our fireplace replaced with a log burner and as such our lounge will be up for a re-vamp.
This is our main space for watching TV and movies. Nothing too trick just as Marantz SR5010 driving a set of Waterfall speakers in 5.1. (Hurricane FR, FL, RR, RL, Elora FC, Hurricane Sub). The sub is getting a little tired (flappy on real low end) and so I have been considering a replacement.
I have built a set of Frugel-Horns for my HiFi set and so are familiar with the Mark Audio drivers.
The lounge is 7.5mW x 3.98D x 2.275H. The TV is in the middle of the lounge with the main listening sofa 3.45m opposite with head height being approx 0.9m high.
The old fire place will be kept as a log store (maybe faux) and I was thinking of building a sub into the space. It is 800mmW x 655H x 400D.
I will be boxing out around the TV (Blue area in pic attached)
Speakers
For now I plan to keep the Hurricanes for the rears. I read here that it is estimated that a 5-5.5ltr sealed enclousre is recommended for the 11MS. The boxing out will have a depth of appox 100mm will that cause any strange effects for the cab if I use that?
It is recommended to have a 22-30deg tow-in for the FR & FL. I can arrange for this in build but do you thik it would be worth it given wide disperesion of the cones?
Finally the sub any thoughts here? Not sure where to start with that. I'm considering a commercial offering but that is not in the spirit of these forums.
TIA
Attachments
Some thoughts...
- You might be able to repair the existing sub
- A shallow cabinet depth could mean more reflections coming back through the cone. I'd consider an inch or so of lining on the back wall, plus some volume fill, to keep that down.
- Toe-in requirements vary driver-to-driver and by personal taste. For a quick-and-dirty demonstration, play some music while moving your head around in front of the speaker. Note how the sound changes as you go from directly on-axis, to a bit off to one side, to very off to one side. Firing them straight down the room will put the centre chair a little off-axis, giving a more "relaxed" presentation, compared to one with the speakers aimed directly at your ears. Given that it's going to be down to personal preference, you'll have to experiment and find what you like.
- Subs are easy enough to design and build. Figure out your LF extension and SPL requirements and go from there.
Chris
- You might be able to repair the existing sub
- A shallow cabinet depth could mean more reflections coming back through the cone. I'd consider an inch or so of lining on the back wall, plus some volume fill, to keep that down.
- Toe-in requirements vary driver-to-driver and by personal taste. For a quick-and-dirty demonstration, play some music while moving your head around in front of the speaker. Note how the sound changes as you go from directly on-axis, to a bit off to one side, to very off to one side. Firing them straight down the room will put the centre chair a little off-axis, giving a more "relaxed" presentation, compared to one with the speakers aimed directly at your ears. Given that it's going to be down to personal preference, you'll have to experiment and find what you like.
- Subs are easy enough to design and build. Figure out your LF extension and SPL requirements and go from there.
Chris
Chris,
Thanks for your tips.
I have had a look at the sub, the speaker cone and surrounds seem in tact and the plate amp caps are not showing any obvious signs bulging etc. Did give me the chance to eject the wildlife (spiders)
The sub itself is a 8" speaker in a ported enclosure and the plate amp in the region of 100w with no internal bracingh. So while OK for music not a lot of grunt for movies and was why I've been considering its replacement. The sub crossover will ultimatly be managed by the amp but to complement 11MS in sealed enclosure I guess I should be looking at something with a 100-150hz top end as a minimum.
The cabs will be built separatly from the boxing out and mounted direct to the wall. The boxing will then overlap the speaker cabs. Fills should not be a problem. The overall shape will be retangular as there will not a lot of space under the TV.
For toe-in I was just using the standard 5.1 speaker placement hints as advice. Its not perfect as it will not be on the listening radius as they will be flat to the wall. Given my exsisting speakers are on swivel maounts I'll give your tips a quick listen as a staring point.
Gary
Thanks for your tips.
I have had a look at the sub, the speaker cone and surrounds seem in tact and the plate amp caps are not showing any obvious signs bulging etc. Did give me the chance to eject the wildlife (spiders)
The sub itself is a 8" speaker in a ported enclosure and the plate amp in the region of 100w with no internal bracingh. So while OK for music not a lot of grunt for movies and was why I've been considering its replacement. The sub crossover will ultimatly be managed by the amp but to complement 11MS in sealed enclosure I guess I should be looking at something with a 100-150hz top end as a minimum.
The cabs will be built separatly from the boxing out and mounted direct to the wall. The boxing will then overlap the speaker cabs. Fills should not be a problem. The overall shape will be retangular as there will not a lot of space under the TV.
For toe-in I was just using the standard 5.1 speaker placement hints as advice. Its not perfect as it will not be on the listening radius as they will be flat to the wall. Given my exsisting speakers are on swivel maounts I'll give your tips a quick listen as a staring point.
Gary
Another Chris here to pipe in re shallow cabinets - I'd definitely concur with both posts above to try to avoid that at all costs, and most particularly with very thin /lightweight material cones such as any of the Alpair metals. I've been using various models of Alpairs in my home theater system for the better part of the last 8 years, and am right now running A10.3 and A10P in the front row, Pluvia7 in front height, and A5.2 in rear surrounds. As the nature of my room predicates all surround effect channels be placed in upper corners, they're mounted on swivel brackets, angled down and with toe-in. It's my own idiosyncrasy- i.e. I've never like in/on wall mounts that I've heard - compounded with the practicality that due to a number of logistical issues dealing with room layouts (fireplaces, staircases, doors, etc), the only placement available for the main speakers in both my rooms is flanked by large picture windows. So while I've never lived with a inwall or shallow on-wall mounted system, I have built one or two wide baffle shallow floorstanders, and have always noticed coloration issues that the same drives in different profile boxes don't exhibit.
I did manage to put a few hours of listening to a pair of the new 11MS - in a full sized floorstander MLTL. I was quite pleased with them, and could imagine the 7MS would perform admirably as well.
I did manage to put a few hours of listening to a pair of the new 11MS - in a full sized floorstander MLTL. I was quite pleased with them, and could imagine the 7MS would perform admirably as well.
Based on what Chris has built & heard… maybe. Chris was quite happy with a set of A10PeN CFS for sometime. The baffle of the CFS is not parallel to the back which will have its own effect.
When we built the PAWO the distance (w FE127e, 89mm deep) was an issue in the MDF ones. Adding a 19mm thick supraBaffle and making them out of bamboo plywood pretty much cleaned that up.
Mileva (designed to fit the same niche as the PAWO but a proper design, 102mm deep), may have suffered a bit, they weren’t as open sounding as the FonkenPrime with the same driver… or it may have been the near wall placement they are designed for.
The latest is Chris’ suspicion that he can hear some issues in the Hawking Memorial Obelisk (which is 112mm deep). No one else commented on this…
dave
When we built the PAWO the distance (w FE127e, 89mm deep) was an issue in the MDF ones. Adding a 19mm thick supraBaffle and making them out of bamboo plywood pretty much cleaned that up.
Mileva (designed to fit the same niche as the PAWO but a proper design, 102mm deep), may have suffered a bit, they weren’t as open sounding as the FonkenPrime with the same driver… or it may have been the near wall placement they are designed for.
The latest is Chris’ suspicion that he can hear some issues in the Hawking Memorial Obelisk (which is 112mm deep). No one else commented on this…
dave
Attachments
Those comments of mine on the Eikonas in the Hawking enclosures were an attempt to extrapolate the previous experiences cited by Dave to justify what I was - and was not - hearing from them in comparison to the new A11MS. As circumspect and politically correct as I’ve tried to be in my observations of the Jordans, I have to say that even in the first few hours of listening to the two in the same system - very decent front end and clean amp with tons of headroom- that I overall prefer the Alpairs.
Of course, absent whatever consensus can be achieved on the “best” listening/test/comparison methods to make such an assessment, most of us will need to make our own based on small sample, non-controlled conditions, and subject to all the biases and subconscious calculus from which few of us are immune.
Of course, absent whatever consensus can be achieved on the “best” listening/test/comparison methods to make such an assessment, most of us will need to make our own based on small sample, non-controlled conditions, and subject to all the biases and subconscious calculus from which few of us are immune.
Thanks for all the replies guys.
Dave I came accross your design for the CHR-70 as a center speaker and the cab demensions could work quite well.
My rough calcs put that at 5.6 cubic meters excluding the bracing and driver so should suit the 11MS but it is very shallow at 75mm leaving just 14mm behind the magnet WO any felt etc.
What do you think would be an acceptable minmum inner depth because at this stage I may be able to make the boxing a little deeper.
Dave I came accross your design for the CHR-70 as a center speaker and the cab demensions could work quite well.
My rough calcs put that at 5.6 cubic meters excluding the bracing and driver so should suit the 11MS but it is very shallow at 75mm leaving just 14mm behind the magnet WO any felt etc.
What do you think would be an acceptable minmum inner depth because at this stage I may be able to make the boxing a little deeper.
The building work for the stove has just started and has started to reveal the space I have to work with.
Although I want it to sound and look good, unfortunately this is the main family space so aesthetics have priority and compromises will have to be a made.
This is what will limit the depth of the speaker cabinets. The TV placement above the stove will also limit the height of the centre speaker so I'm not 100% sure that an 11 will fit. It might have to be 2 7s.
This is going to be a slow and steady project, hopefully.
Although I want it to sound and look good, unfortunately this is the main family space so aesthetics have priority and compromises will have to be a made.
This is what will limit the depth of the speaker cabinets. The TV placement above the stove will also limit the height of the centre speaker so I'm not 100% sure that an 11 will fit. It might have to be 2 7s.
This is going to be a slow and steady project, hopefully.
It should be noted that if you are doing a small reflex box the A11ms fits a smaller box than the A7ms.
dave
Getting a better idea of the sizes available now. So I think I'm with the 11MS, a smaller sealed enclosure & better power handling.
For the center I'm restricted on height and depth. I'm looking to make the cab out of 18mm MDF with external dims of 200H x 150D x 380W mm. Just under 6lts. So with some internal bracing, lining & fill should be about right.
For the L/R I'm only restricted in depth but I guess it makes sense to make 3 of the same.
All of the speakers will be mounted flat to the wall with the boxing out being flush with the front of the new wall.
For the center I'm restricted on height and depth. I'm looking to make the cab out of 18mm MDF with external dims of 200H x 150D x 380W mm. Just under 6lts. So with some internal bracing, lining & fill should be about right.
For the L/R I'm only restricted in depth but I guess it makes sense to make 3 of the same.
All of the speakers will be mounted flat to the wall with the boxing out being flush with the front of the new wall.
Here is a starting point… the A11ms fits into this box (with adjusted venting). It is a bit smaller than optimum, but could likely be shrunk even further if needed.
https://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/CGR-dPlu-Ken11-0v82-plan-300716.pdf
I strongly recomend using 12 or 15mm quality plywood instead of MDF. And with restricted space, material thickness becomes a significant factor.
dave
https://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/CGR-dPlu-Ken11-0v82-plan-300716.pdf
I strongly recomend using 12 or 15mm quality plywood instead of MDF. And with restricted space, material thickness becomes a significant factor.
dave
Cheers Dave.
As part of a surround sound system, I assuming that maximising the lower end is not so critical, within reason, as the sub will take over.
Of course I can use thiner material as part of the build which means cab can be slightly smaller but what is the issue with a thicker MDF over a thinner ply?
In this instance I was planning to use MDF as the boxing out is likely to be made of the same.
As part of a surround sound system, I assuming that maximising the lower end is not so critical, within reason, as the sub will take over.
Of course I can use thiner material as part of the build which means cab can be slightly smaller but what is the issue with a thicker MDF over a thinner ply?
In this instance I was planning to use MDF as the boxing out is likely to be made of the same.
Gary - having cycled through a series of small to medium sized FR drivers in my own modest surround system over the past half dozen or so years, I’d agree with your assumption. My current configuration is:
L&R - A10.3
Centre - A10P
Front height surrounds - Pluvia 7
Rear surrounds - A5.2
Subs -pair of OEM 9” Monsoon drivers, sealed. Probably the weakest link, but not sure about upgrade strategy.
To repeat myself, the bass management and auto-calibration systems in today’s HT receivers make this a dream.
High quality plywood - i.e. Baltic Birch, or by whatever name it’s locally distributed, is much stiffer for unit of thickness than MDF, particle board or OSB. AFAIC, BB’s only downside is the higher cost.
L&R - A10.3
Centre - A10P
Front height surrounds - Pluvia 7
Rear surrounds - A5.2
Subs -pair of OEM 9” Monsoon drivers, sealed. Probably the weakest link, but not sure about upgrade strategy.
To repeat myself, the bass management and auto-calibration systems in today’s HT receivers make this a dream.
High quality plywood - i.e. Baltic Birch, or by whatever name it’s locally distributed, is much stiffer for unit of thickness than MDF, particle board or OSB. AFAIC, BB’s only downside is the higher cost.
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