So, I have one project on the go (classic car restoration) but once that is over a pair of speakers is next on my list.
So, I am hoping "the collective" on here can provide some guidance/advice to help planning.
So, basic requirement - I listen to pretty much exclusively prog metal, prog rock, djent, math/tech metal which I feel need lots of control/punch/dynamics on the bottom end (i.e. the notes start and stop quickly with no blurring), I like clean and slightly forward mids and at the top end I like it fairly smooth (not too harsh, splashy etc.). I know it is difficult to describe music but hopefully this will direct solutions.
My baseline is a pair for Kef 104/2 driven by a Quad 44/405 combo which I sold a few years ago, regrettable, but did like that sound, which had a fairly punch bottom end, great mids and a smooth top end after a tweeter replacement for soft domes.
So, my original thoughts were something like the Jim Holtz Statement Mini, the Visaton B80 floor standers or a 3 way TL with 6.5" or 8" drivers + 3-4" full range mids and a 1" soft dome or ribbon.
However, looking at this Full Range section it occurs to me that a 15" + 10" + super tweeter may do the job better for a similar outlay (£1k UK for both speakers all in) and with less fabrication.
So my plan is as follows -
Martin King's Eminence Alpha 15" H frame woofer - rolled off around 150
Audio Nirvana Super 10" Ferrite OB - used full range
If needed Fostex T90a super tweeters with a 10khz capacitor high pass.
To drive this I already have 2 x Rotel RB850 poweramps that can be bridged to give 150W for use with the 15" Woofers (currently using these with a pair of CDM1SE's + 2 Wharfedale SW150 subs and although they are getting on a bit they still sound pretty good and quite musical for Rotels), I will then get another RB850 at 2x50w to drive the ANs10 (and T90A if required), these will be fronted up by a Minidsp 2x4HD to handle woofer crossover/filtering to get a frequency response that is something like the optimum mentioned in here - https://www.bksv.com/media/doc/17-197.pdf - roughly flat from 30-150hz and then 6db drop through to 20khz.
In terms of construction I am thinking of using 38-40mm butchers block kitchen worktop as off cuts are plentiful, cheap and easy to work (beech preferred but possibly oak) and also adding a granite work top slab on top (and maybe underneath) of the sub section to give it extra mass and sorbathane hemisphere under the sub (I have solid floors with wood on top so spikes are out, SWMBO rule invoked) and under the OB.
So, sorry for the long message but is this a sensible plan or would I be better going for a plan built like the Holtz Statement Mini's which is a more complex build for the box and also needs passive crossovers building.
Thanks in advance for all comments.
Should have added, thanks to this guy for the inspiration (chops, think he also posts on here) Audio Nirvana Super 10 Ferrite on Open Baffle...
So, I am hoping "the collective" on here can provide some guidance/advice to help planning.
So, basic requirement - I listen to pretty much exclusively prog metal, prog rock, djent, math/tech metal which I feel need lots of control/punch/dynamics on the bottom end (i.e. the notes start and stop quickly with no blurring), I like clean and slightly forward mids and at the top end I like it fairly smooth (not too harsh, splashy etc.). I know it is difficult to describe music but hopefully this will direct solutions.
My baseline is a pair for Kef 104/2 driven by a Quad 44/405 combo which I sold a few years ago, regrettable, but did like that sound, which had a fairly punch bottom end, great mids and a smooth top end after a tweeter replacement for soft domes.
So, my original thoughts were something like the Jim Holtz Statement Mini, the Visaton B80 floor standers or a 3 way TL with 6.5" or 8" drivers + 3-4" full range mids and a 1" soft dome or ribbon.
However, looking at this Full Range section it occurs to me that a 15" + 10" + super tweeter may do the job better for a similar outlay (£1k UK for both speakers all in) and with less fabrication.
So my plan is as follows -
Martin King's Eminence Alpha 15" H frame woofer - rolled off around 150
Audio Nirvana Super 10" Ferrite OB - used full range
If needed Fostex T90a super tweeters with a 10khz capacitor high pass.
To drive this I already have 2 x Rotel RB850 poweramps that can be bridged to give 150W for use with the 15" Woofers (currently using these with a pair of CDM1SE's + 2 Wharfedale SW150 subs and although they are getting on a bit they still sound pretty good and quite musical for Rotels), I will then get another RB850 at 2x50w to drive the ANs10 (and T90A if required), these will be fronted up by a Minidsp 2x4HD to handle woofer crossover/filtering to get a frequency response that is something like the optimum mentioned in here - https://www.bksv.com/media/doc/17-197.pdf - roughly flat from 30-150hz and then 6db drop through to 20khz.
In terms of construction I am thinking of using 38-40mm butchers block kitchen worktop as off cuts are plentiful, cheap and easy to work (beech preferred but possibly oak) and also adding a granite work top slab on top (and maybe underneath) of the sub section to give it extra mass and sorbathane hemisphere under the sub (I have solid floors with wood on top so spikes are out, SWMBO rule invoked) and under the OB.
So, sorry for the long message but is this a sensible plan or would I be better going for a plan built like the Holtz Statement Mini's which is a more complex build for the box and also needs passive crossovers building.
Thanks in advance for all comments.
Should have added, thanks to this guy for the inspiration (chops, think he also posts on here) Audio Nirvana Super 10 Ferrite on Open Baffle...
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Since you mentioned Martin King - if you were to look at the several OB design projects on his site, I think you'll find that there are several two-ways that utilize 3 -4" full-range drivers by Fostex http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/OB_Design_Part_2.pdf , for which he's pretty much done all the math.
MJK has indeed loads of information, and has a Yahoo group discussion, and now a FB page where you can post.
Invaluable.
As for the music you listen to, I think a small 3" crossed at 150 (too low, 300-350 would be better) will lack guts. The cleanliness of OB bass is sweet, and a 3" is fine for quiet jazz and small ensembles, but prog rock and metal will feel a little tinny.
I've built both, and I find that a 6.5 or 8" fullranger will be more gutsy and pleasing than a small 3". Mine reach 15kHz easily, which is the limit of my hearing these days, but do beam a little, so the sweet spot is restrained. You could add a tweeter if you feel you need on.
Invaluable.
As for the music you listen to, I think a small 3" crossed at 150 (too low, 300-350 would be better) will lack guts. The cleanliness of OB bass is sweet, and a 3" is fine for quiet jazz and small ensembles, but prog rock and metal will feel a little tinny.
I've built both, and I find that a 6.5 or 8" fullranger will be more gutsy and pleasing than a small 3". Mine reach 15kHz easily, which is the limit of my hearing these days, but do beam a little, so the sweet spot is restrained. You could add a tweeter if you feel you need on.
Many thanks for the comments, much appreciated.
I have a bit of an issue if I have to get them 2m from any walls as my room is only 3.5m x 3.5m and the speakers will need to be within about 30cm of the rear wall.
If that is the case do I need to revisit my original thought of a medium size floor standing 3 way of more conventional construction?
I had identified these before -
MiniStatements
Vision B80
Dschinn TL
I have a bit of an issue if I have to get them 2m from any walls as my room is only 3.5m x 3.5m and the speakers will need to be within about 30cm of the rear wall.
If that is the case do I need to revisit my original thought of a medium size floor standing 3 way of more conventional construction?
I had identified these before -
MiniStatements
Vision B80
Dschinn TL
We have been thru almost all the kinds of configuarations you propose. And gone from there. With the right choice of FR the tweeter is extraneous and often it (and its XO) just get in the way.
The idea of doing a WAW specifically for your listening needs is a solid path. There are lots of decent 3” drivers (i have my favorites but there ar elots we have not tried), but your listening needs suggest something larger would be more appropriate. My 1st thot was the Alpair 10p. Match that up with 1 or more woofers — we have been very happy with a number of 6.5-7” jobs, but you might want to consider something larger… there is a wealth to choose from, and they need not be expensive (we have been very pleased with the Silver Flute W14). A couple hundred bucks would have 4 per side, a Wooden TL takes them down to about 35 Hz, and plantly of cone area to give the desired upper bass punch you’d need. But you should be surveying for what you can get locally.
The miniDSP gives you XO flexibility, you just need the right box & drivers.
Something like this: Tower Speakers |
Fern & Roby (A12pw + A10p) but with more woofer… our work along these lines (we were there before them):Alpair 7.3eN/12pw WAW build
and
dave
The idea of doing a WAW specifically for your listening needs is a solid path. There are lots of decent 3” drivers (i have my favorites but there ar elots we have not tried), but your listening needs suggest something larger would be more appropriate. My 1st thot was the Alpair 10p. Match that up with 1 or more woofers — we have been very happy with a number of 6.5-7” jobs, but you might want to consider something larger… there is a wealth to choose from, and they need not be expensive (we have been very pleased with the Silver Flute W14). A couple hundred bucks would have 4 per side, a Wooden TL takes them down to about 35 Hz, and plantly of cone area to give the desired upper bass punch you’d need. But you should be surveying for what you can get locally.
The miniDSP gives you XO flexibility, you just need the right box & drivers.
Something like this: Tower Speakers |
Fern & Roby (A12pw + A10p) but with more woofer… our work along these lines (we were there before them):Alpair 7.3eN/12pw WAW build
and
dave
Indeed, not too much space, for OB.
You might be able to get them as close as 1.5m off the walls, but with adding some absorption panels on the wall behind the OBs.
Of the three you mentioned, the Mini Statements look the best. I love a good TL, but their design compromise of an efficiency of 77 for reaching 22Hz isn't great.
Using a minidsp to do the XO is the best way to sculpt the drivers curves tailored to your room.
Then, there are a number of designs out there.. In no particular order, but just to excite your imagination:
- there are a number of members who rave about their big Fane 15 fullrange. Add a compression horn, or a good strong 3" like the FaitalPro on top if you need more sparkle.
- I'm a huge fan of TL, so the TABAQ large, again, crossed to a good tweeter or small 3" driver wiould be fun, and with room gain, it will dig low. I hope you considered adding bass traps in that square box of a room
- Line arrays. Here, you will need EQ, so, either the minidsp and you could get away with a smaller array of 16 drivers per column and crossing to dual subs. Or go the full Monty and use 25 drivers each, and you probably won't need subs. The cool thing here is that arrays don't take much floor space, and could even be incorporated into the corners of you room. That a lot of sound in a very space saving design.
Sorry for the delay in replying and saying thanks for the input, this is much appreciated.
I am not sure I can get away with those line arrays, impressive as they are.
I do like the look of the Alpair 7.3eN/12pw WAW pairing, how would this compare to the more traditional Statement Mini's.
Also looking at the specs for the silver flute W14, that packs quite a punch for a 5.5" driver and really cheap. Would there be any benefit moving up to the W17 or even the W20 as they all look to have similar frequency responses but with a slight extension to the low end going up in size or even doubling up on them at that price?
A woofer enclosure up to 2ft3 (60l) would be possible with a full range on top. Would like the Woofer to dig down into the low 30's if possible and then cross over would probably be around the 300hz mark for a full range?
I am not sure I can get away with those line arrays, impressive as they are.
I do like the look of the Alpair 7.3eN/12pw WAW pairing, how would this compare to the more traditional Statement Mini's.
Also looking at the specs for the silver flute W14, that packs quite a punch for a 5.5" driver and really cheap. Would there be any benefit moving up to the W17 or even the W20 as they all look to have similar frequency responses but with a slight extension to the low end going up in size or even doubling up on them at that price?
A woofer enclosure up to 2ft3 (60l) would be possible with a full range on top. Would like the Woofer to dig down into the low 30's if possible and then cross over would probably be around the 300hz mark for a full range?
Been doing a bit more homework. So, think may have a plan emerging but it will definitely need a sanity check.
Doing a search I found the FE167En Fonkens (the ones with the bottom stand/box) which in one case had a 7" driver put in the bass.
Fonken 167 enclosures build- notes
This got me thinking -
I like the Fonken design/shape etc. and would be happy with the square version (not tapered). The FE166En would be my first choice as it is more easily available this side of the pond (understanding that there may be a slight reduction in sound quality compared to the FE167 En Plannet 10 special) and the Planet 10 specs seem to say this design will work with the stock driver. The FE166EN gives me a bit more cone area to drive the mid range.
However, finding a driver that will dig deep but fit in a 23l box was a challenge so my solution is this -
Adding 67mm to the centre of the front baffle taking it from 208mm to 275mm thus allowing a 10" bass driver to be put into the bottom box. This will add approx. 3.6l to the top Fonken box and bring the lower box to 26-27l (could pinch a bit more by making it taller and dropping the FE166En down a bit maybe).
At 27l in a vented box the Dayton RSS265HO-4 will give an F3 a tad under 30hz with dual front firing 40mm diam x 150mm long ports using ML calculator.
As I will most likely be running this with a minidsp 2x4 (possibly HD) then I can balance sensitivity and carry out crossovers/EQ probably around 250-300Hz.
So, I guess the question is - by adding the extra 67mm/3.6l into the top box do I ruin the performance of the FE166EN (volume and baffle interference) or do I have to drop the height to maintain the volume and make the vents wider to keep the vent area the same ? (Dropping the height would help with the bass box as I could make that bigger = lower bass !!!)
Also, are there any alternative 10" drivers that I should look at to give a F3 around 30hz (or lower) in a 30l ish vented cabinet ?
Finally, does anyone have links to or can post in box real (not simulated) measurements for the FE166/167 Fonken so I can see how it performs ?
Doing a search I found the FE167En Fonkens (the ones with the bottom stand/box) which in one case had a 7" driver put in the bass.
Fonken 167 enclosures build- notes
This got me thinking -
I like the Fonken design/shape etc. and would be happy with the square version (not tapered). The FE166En would be my first choice as it is more easily available this side of the pond (understanding that there may be a slight reduction in sound quality compared to the FE167 En Plannet 10 special) and the Planet 10 specs seem to say this design will work with the stock driver. The FE166EN gives me a bit more cone area to drive the mid range.
However, finding a driver that will dig deep but fit in a 23l box was a challenge so my solution is this -
Adding 67mm to the centre of the front baffle taking it from 208mm to 275mm thus allowing a 10" bass driver to be put into the bottom box. This will add approx. 3.6l to the top Fonken box and bring the lower box to 26-27l (could pinch a bit more by making it taller and dropping the FE166En down a bit maybe).
At 27l in a vented box the Dayton RSS265HO-4 will give an F3 a tad under 30hz with dual front firing 40mm diam x 150mm long ports using ML calculator.
As I will most likely be running this with a minidsp 2x4 (possibly HD) then I can balance sensitivity and carry out crossovers/EQ probably around 250-300Hz.
So, I guess the question is - by adding the extra 67mm/3.6l into the top box do I ruin the performance of the FE166EN (volume and baffle interference) or do I have to drop the height to maintain the volume and make the vents wider to keep the vent area the same ? (Dropping the height would help with the bass box as I could make that bigger = lower bass !!!)
Also, are there any alternative 10" drivers that I should look at to give a F3 around 30hz (or lower) in a 30l ish vented cabinet ?
Finally, does anyone have links to or can post in box real (not simulated) measurements for the FE166/167 Fonken so I can see how it performs ?
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One thing I will add is....
Do consider the miniDSP HD. Going full digital before the conversion to analogue will greatly open the sound.
I tried the analogue inputs on the miniDSP and I was disappointed from the degraded sound that came out, having to do the extra digital/analogue conversions.
Also, if you don't mind the added cost, they are coming up with the SHD line which looks fantastic. Pricing is not out yet, but will surely be more expensive than a 2x4.
It comes with Volumio, and all the plugin power of the 2x4 HD for XO, EQ and FIR filters.
TangBand have a few drivers with minimalist Vas that would dig deep into a small box. I have the W8-1363SBF and it gives me a low 30-ish Hz from a 15 litre-box.
Do consider the miniDSP HD. Going full digital before the conversion to analogue will greatly open the sound.
I tried the analogue inputs on the miniDSP and I was disappointed from the degraded sound that came out, having to do the extra digital/analogue conversions.
Also, if you don't mind the added cost, they are coming up with the SHD line which looks fantastic. Pricing is not out yet, but will surely be more expensive than a 2x4.
It comes with Volumio, and all the plugin power of the 2x4 HD for XO, EQ and FIR filters.
TangBand have a few drivers with minimalist Vas that would dig deep into a small box. I have the W8-1363SBF and it gives me a low 30-ish Hz from a 15 litre-box.
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Thanks again.
I have read that the 2x4HD is better than the straight 2x4 (less noise, better processor) but I am not sure if the optical input is the best. if I can get away with a simple passive crossover then I will also look into that. I will almost certainly be driving it with a Chromecast Audio through the optical input. Ideally I would have liked a 2x4 HD (bare board ?) fed directly by something like a ESS9028PRO chip board through the I2S port, still looking into this.
Will have a look at the TB drivers and see where I can get them in the UK.
As for the SHD - rumours on other sites are that it will be £1k plus which is four times the price of a 2x4HD in the UK.
I have read that the 2x4HD is better than the straight 2x4 (less noise, better processor) but I am not sure if the optical input is the best. if I can get away with a simple passive crossover then I will also look into that. I will almost certainly be driving it with a Chromecast Audio through the optical input. Ideally I would have liked a 2x4 HD (bare board ?) fed directly by something like a ESS9028PRO chip board through the I2S port, still looking into this.
Will have a look at the TB drivers and see where I can get them in the UK.
As for the SHD - rumours on other sites are that it will be £1k plus which is four times the price of a 2x4HD in the UK.
The FE166En is a completely different driver than the FE167e. The FE167e has long been NLA.
(BTW for anyone a little closer here is a pair for sale: Fostex Fonken 167 (FE167) speakers**price reduction** Victoria City, Victoria)
The FF165wk is the FE167e spiritual successor, but it prefers a smaller box (17 litres) which would leave more room for a woofer in the bottom box created by extending the box to the floor. One could get even more by starting with a wider version of the Fonken.
dave
(BTW for anyone a little closer here is a pair for sale: Fostex Fonken 167 (FE167) speakers**price reduction** Victoria City, Victoria)
The FF165wk is the FE167e spiritual successor, but it prefers a smaller box (17 litres) which would leave more room for a woofer in the bottom box created by extending the box to the floor. One could get even more by starting with a wider version of the Fonken.
dave
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