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Help me design a Bose F1 type system.
Help me design a Bose F1 type system.
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Old 5th March 2018, 02:46 PM   #1
mayhem13 is offline mayhem13  United States
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Default Help me design a Bose F1 type system.

So after hearing the Bose F1 is a Blues/Jazz club show a few weeks ago, I'm convinced that this arrangement is the best application for compact PA systems......the midrange and vocal clarity at volume was simply stunning!

When I reflect on all of the fullrange driver work here and my own experiments, I don't think it would be too hard to outdo the capability of the Bose system in a DIY arrangement for less money. I've settled on my midwoofers and for weight considerations and bass response using the Eminence Deltalite 12 in a ported enclosure. Now I just need to settle on a fullrange.

When considering fullrange drivers for this type of system, obviously efficiency and power handling have to have a significant priority along with frequency response with weight and weather durability right behind. I think an adequate size range to work in this type of alignment would be 2.5-3.5"

My first thought is to purchase a single driver of each type I'm considering a do some very critical listening and power handling testing for sibilance, smoothness and damage at volume but that can get kinda pricey. I think some of the experiences that you all have had will prove invaluable to shortening the list. Thanks!
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Old 5th March 2018, 03:02 PM   #2
globalplayer is offline globalplayer  Germany
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BOSE (Buy Other Sound Equipment) uses cheap drivers and tons of processing to make up for it.
I don`t know if that's a good thing to pursue.
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Old 5th March 2018, 03:32 PM   #3
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Help me design a Bose F1 type system.
Can’t go wrong with 3FE25 16ohms wired for equivalent 8ohms in series parallel. It will easily give 97dB sensitivity and is a smooth performer. Price is good too.
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Old 5th March 2018, 03:39 PM   #4
18Hurts is offline 18Hurts  United States
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Vertical line arrays with full range drivers have been done since the 1950's--not exactly "new" and Bose brings nothing to the table there.

As far as high output full range drivers go, you can get far superior full ranges than the Bose 30 year old low power drivers--Faital Pro makes some really nice 3" Neodymium full ranges (I've heard them) and another option is their 4" full range if you don't get too anal about above 15KHz. In reality, for PA use there is nothing over 14KHz except harmonics so concentrate on the main frequency bands.

I built a pair of 3-way line arrays for my garage, only took 3 tries and 18 months but it works well for that use. Learned a lot of things the hard way with that build, with line arrays the fight is at the higher frequencies and after soldering in 48 tweeters per line array and adding EQ...I was able to get them to work.

JBL makes those column line arrays with 2" full ranges and DSP to get them to work properly. The smaller the full range, the better chance you have to get the highs correct but you give up efficiency, total SPL and so on.

It is really hard to "know" what the array will sound like by listening to one driver. Once you start to stack drivers, the frequency response changes as the higher you go up in frequency, the drivers then start to cancel each other--the nature of the beast. To get it to work properly requires using full ranges that are made to be used in line arrays, they have a distinctive rise in output as the frequency increases to "make up" for stacking multiples that will then start to cancel that response (basically)

Eminence just came out with some new full ranges in 32 ohms. The idea is to run 8 of them for a 4 ohm load and when crossed at 80Hz, they can handle 100 watts total. If you cross them higher, they can handle 280 watts so the midbass is your limit.

If you really want to do it right, I'd go with a minimum of 2 to 3 meters in height for the arrays (6.7 to 10 feet) You can make them with 8 or 9 drivers in each "stick", pack them with the frames touching and then stack them vertically. One of the designs I saw used the Faital Pro 3 inch 16 ohm drivers. The guy make three 9 driver boxes with the 16 ohm drivers so each box was 16 ohms. Three stacked in parallel for a roughly 6 ohm load and each box was around 75cm (30 inches) in height for a 3 stack height of less than 8 feet.

Those 3 inchers need a crossover point of around 160Hz so they can take some power. I like the Faital Pros because I've heard them, they are efficient at 91dB each and with the neodymium magnets, very light weight to make for easy transport. The downside is their frame makes mounting a pain but such is life! The other bonus of Neo is the very light weight of them means less chance of damage if/when the stacks get dropped or knocked over.

If you want to mess around with line arrays, I'd start off with the Eminence 32 ohm drivers wired 8 in parallel. It can be run at 100 watts to 80Hz so you'll have a broad range to test them. Run you $160 for an 8 pack--maybe make small 4 driver boxes following Eminence specifications so you can hear small stereo then stack them for the 8 driver array to get an idea how the design works.

Eminence Alpha 3-32 3" Full-Range Speaker 32 Ohm
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Old 5th March 2018, 04:11 PM   #5
mayhem13 is offline mayhem13  United States
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You'd have to look at the F1 to understand the hybrid array concept and what I'm going for here......a somewhat compact mid-high cabinet with response from 100hz to 15khz. The fullrange array is only 8 vertical drivers in front of a 12" midwoofer and designed to be mounted above a sub at varying heights depending on the venue.

Regardless of BOSE reputation, I can tell you as a life long audio lover and musician and live sound engineer(retired) I can honestly say the sound of the F1 is nothing less than stunning!....vocal clarity and presence outstanding. I'm sure the drivers are cheap, but the alignment works. So with better drivers and a less resonance non plastic enclosure I can't see exceeding the BOSE system performance by magnitude.
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Old 5th March 2018, 04:17 PM   #6
mayhem13 is offline mayhem13  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
Canít go wrong with 3FE25 16ohms wired for equivalent 8ohms in series parallel. It will easily give 97dB sensitivity and is a smooth performer. Price is good too.
I've considered those first and foremost for power handling and sensitivity in an 8 Driver array works as you've indicated. After some baffles step compensation for the Eminence Deltalite 12, we're looking at an overall efficiency of 95db.

Do you have any practical listening time with the Faital?.....how does it compare to the beloved TC9? Horizontal off axis response is obviously important in this application.....the wider the better. I'd be willing to accept a loss of efficiency for a better SQ performance. Power comes pretty cheap these days where PA systems are concerned and I'd probably be using INuke amps with DSP for this system.
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Old 5th March 2018, 04:32 PM   #7
globalplayer is offline globalplayer  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post
You'd have to look at the F1 to understand the hybrid array concept and what I'm going for here......a somewhat compact mid-high cabinet with response from 100hz to 15khz. The fullrange array is only 8 vertical drivers in front of a 12" midwoofer and designed to be mounted above a sub at varying heights depending on the venue.
The Fane Sovereign 12 250TC will do 80Hz-18kHz in around 40L closed.
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Old 5th March 2018, 04:56 PM   #8
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
Vertical line arrays with full range drivers have been done since the 1950's--not exactly "new"
Couldn't find the picture I posted ages ago, but circa 1925?, RCA sold a vertical line array of large 'FR' drivers fitted to each side of the cinema screen and individually aimed as required, but W.E.'s [multiple] horn system prevailed, though considering all its shortcomings, not sure if they 'bought' the market or not, at least in smaller venues where there wasn't the need for the high peak SPLs required for the large 'palaces' of the day.

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Old 5th March 2018, 05:37 PM   #9
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post
Regardless of BOSE reputation, I can tell you as a life long audio lover and musician and live sound engineer(retired) I can honestly say the sound of the F1 is nothing less than stunning!....
Agree 100%; not for the F1 [which I wasn't aware of], but WRT their prosound systems in general back when I was exposed to a number of Fostex, B0$3 prosound monitor systems of various designs, sizes used at trade shows in 2000-2003 and WRT the latter, was impressed enough to want to use them for small room ~ high end HIFI and even [then] large HT apps till I learned how expensive they were.

Anyway, thanks for the 'heads up', hopefully there's a demo for them at the local distributor to update my opinion for better or worse.

GM
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Old 5th March 2018, 06:14 PM   #10
chrisb is offline chrisb
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While line arrays certainly aren't new, there does appear to be a couple of features of this product that aren't commonplace. Specifically the 4 adjustable dispersion patterns with EQ automatically selected by magnetic switching, and what appears to be a very flexible interface between the line array section and extended bass module. Take a quick scan of the manualhttps://assets.bose.com/content/dam/...uide_MULTI.pdf

No doubt there might be lots of driver models available to the DIYer or small OEM that could fit the bill for such an application, but the assertion that the complete functionality of this system could easily be replicated should perhaps be re-examined.

I've never been a fan of any of the Bose products I've heard over the past 45yrs, but in the specialized application for which these are intended, there are likely more factors than just the obvious number of drivers in however many boxes.

edit - this should probably really reside in the PA Systems forum, that's what these are
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Last edited by chrisb; 5th March 2018 at 06:22 PM.
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