So after hearing the Bose F1 is a Blues/Jazz club show a few weeks ago, I'm convinced that this arrangement is the best application for compact PA systems......the midrange and vocal clarity at volume was simply stunning!
When I reflect on all of the fullrange driver work here and my own experiments, I don't think it would be too hard to outdo the capability of the Bose system in a DIY arrangement for less money. I've settled on my midwoofers and for weight considerations and bass response using the Eminence Deltalite 12 in a ported enclosure. Now I just need to settle on a fullrange.
When considering fullrange drivers for this type of system, obviously efficiency and power handling have to have a significant priority along with frequency response with weight and weather durability right behind. I think an adequate size range to work in this type of alignment would be 2.5-3.5"
My first thought is to purchase a single driver of each type I'm considering a do some very critical listening and power handling testing for sibilance, smoothness and damage at volume but that can get kinda pricey. I think some of the experiences that you all have had will prove invaluable to shortening the list. Thanks!
When I reflect on all of the fullrange driver work here and my own experiments, I don't think it would be too hard to outdo the capability of the Bose system in a DIY arrangement for less money. I've settled on my midwoofers and for weight considerations and bass response using the Eminence Deltalite 12 in a ported enclosure. Now I just need to settle on a fullrange.
When considering fullrange drivers for this type of system, obviously efficiency and power handling have to have a significant priority along with frequency response with weight and weather durability right behind. I think an adequate size range to work in this type of alignment would be 2.5-3.5"
My first thought is to purchase a single driver of each type I'm considering a do some very critical listening and power handling testing for sibilance, smoothness and damage at volume but that can get kinda pricey. I think some of the experiences that you all have had will prove invaluable to shortening the list. Thanks!
Vertical line arrays with full range drivers have been done since the 1950's--not exactly "new" and Bose brings nothing to the table there.
As far as high output full range drivers go, you can get far superior full ranges than the Bose 30 year old low power drivers--Faital Pro makes some really nice 3" Neodymium full ranges (I've heard them) and another option is their 4" full range if you don't get too anal about above 15KHz. In reality, for PA use there is nothing over 14KHz except harmonics so concentrate on the main frequency bands.
I built a pair of 3-way line arrays for my garage, only took 3 tries and 18 months but it works well for that use. Learned a lot of things the hard way with that build, with line arrays the fight is at the higher frequencies and after soldering in 48 tweeters per line array and adding EQ...I was able to get them to work.
JBL makes those column line arrays with 2" full ranges and DSP to get them to work properly. The smaller the full range, the better chance you have to get the highs correct but you give up efficiency, total SPL and so on.
It is really hard to "know" what the array will sound like by listening to one driver. Once you start to stack drivers, the frequency response changes as the higher you go up in frequency, the drivers then start to cancel each other--the nature of the beast. To get it to work properly requires using full ranges that are made to be used in line arrays, they have a distinctive rise in output as the frequency increases to "make up" for stacking multiples that will then start to cancel that response (basically)
Eminence just came out with some new full ranges in 32 ohms. The idea is to run 8 of them for a 4 ohm load and when crossed at 80Hz, they can handle 100 watts total. If you cross them higher, they can handle 280 watts so the midbass is your limit.
If you really want to do it right, I'd go with a minimum of 2 to 3 meters in height for the arrays (6.7 to 10 feet) You can make them with 8 or 9 drivers in each "stick", pack them with the frames touching and then stack them vertically. One of the designs I saw used the Faital Pro 3 inch 16 ohm drivers. The guy make three 9 driver boxes with the 16 ohm drivers so each box was 16 ohms. Three stacked in parallel for a roughly 6 ohm load and each box was around 75cm (30 inches) in height for a 3 stack height of less than 8 feet.
Those 3 inchers need a crossover point of around 160Hz so they can take some power. I like the Faital Pros because I've heard them, they are efficient at 91dB each and with the neodymium magnets, very light weight to make for easy transport. The downside is their frame makes mounting a pain but such is life! The other bonus of Neo is the very light weight of them means less chance of damage if/when the stacks get dropped or knocked over.
If you want to mess around with line arrays, I'd start off with the Eminence 32 ohm drivers wired 8 in parallel. It can be run at 100 watts to 80Hz so you'll have a broad range to test them. Run you $160 for an 8 pack--maybe make small 4 driver boxes following Eminence specifications so you can hear small stereo then stack them for the 8 driver array to get an idea how the design works.
Eminence Alpha 3-32 3" Full-Range Speaker 32 Ohm
As far as high output full range drivers go, you can get far superior full ranges than the Bose 30 year old low power drivers--Faital Pro makes some really nice 3" Neodymium full ranges (I've heard them) and another option is their 4" full range if you don't get too anal about above 15KHz. In reality, for PA use there is nothing over 14KHz except harmonics so concentrate on the main frequency bands.
I built a pair of 3-way line arrays for my garage, only took 3 tries and 18 months but it works well for that use. Learned a lot of things the hard way with that build, with line arrays the fight is at the higher frequencies and after soldering in 48 tweeters per line array and adding EQ...I was able to get them to work.
JBL makes those column line arrays with 2" full ranges and DSP to get them to work properly. The smaller the full range, the better chance you have to get the highs correct but you give up efficiency, total SPL and so on.
It is really hard to "know" what the array will sound like by listening to one driver. Once you start to stack drivers, the frequency response changes as the higher you go up in frequency, the drivers then start to cancel each other--the nature of the beast. To get it to work properly requires using full ranges that are made to be used in line arrays, they have a distinctive rise in output as the frequency increases to "make up" for stacking multiples that will then start to cancel that response (basically)
Eminence just came out with some new full ranges in 32 ohms. The idea is to run 8 of them for a 4 ohm load and when crossed at 80Hz, they can handle 100 watts total. If you cross them higher, they can handle 280 watts so the midbass is your limit.
If you really want to do it right, I'd go with a minimum of 2 to 3 meters in height for the arrays (6.7 to 10 feet) You can make them with 8 or 9 drivers in each "stick", pack them with the frames touching and then stack them vertically. One of the designs I saw used the Faital Pro 3 inch 16 ohm drivers. The guy make three 9 driver boxes with the 16 ohm drivers so each box was 16 ohms. Three stacked in parallel for a roughly 6 ohm load and each box was around 75cm (30 inches) in height for a 3 stack height of less than 8 feet.
Those 3 inchers need a crossover point of around 160Hz so they can take some power. I like the Faital Pros because I've heard them, they are efficient at 91dB each and with the neodymium magnets, very light weight to make for easy transport. The downside is their frame makes mounting a pain but such is life! The other bonus of Neo is the very light weight of them means less chance of damage if/when the stacks get dropped or knocked over.
If you want to mess around with line arrays, I'd start off with the Eminence 32 ohm drivers wired 8 in parallel. It can be run at 100 watts to 80Hz so you'll have a broad range to test them. Run you $160 for an 8 pack--maybe make small 4 driver boxes following Eminence specifications so you can hear small stereo then stack them for the 8 driver array to get an idea how the design works.
Eminence Alpha 3-32 3" Full-Range Speaker 32 Ohm
You'd have to look at the F1 to understand the hybrid array concept and what I'm going for here......a somewhat compact mid-high cabinet with response from 100hz to 15khz. The fullrange array is only 8 vertical drivers in front of a 12" midwoofer and designed to be mounted above a sub at varying heights depending on the venue.
Regardless of BOSE reputation, I can tell you as a life long audio lover and musician and live sound engineer(retired) I can honestly say the sound of the F1 is nothing less than stunning!....vocal clarity and presence outstanding. I'm sure the drivers are cheap, but the alignment works. So with better drivers and a less resonance non plastic enclosure I can't see exceeding the BOSE system performance by magnitude.
Regardless of BOSE reputation, I can tell you as a life long audio lover and musician and live sound engineer(retired) I can honestly say the sound of the F1 is nothing less than stunning!....vocal clarity and presence outstanding. I'm sure the drivers are cheap, but the alignment works. So with better drivers and a less resonance non plastic enclosure I can't see exceeding the BOSE system performance by magnitude.
I've considered those first and foremost for power handling and sensitivity in an 8 Driver array works as you've indicated. After some baffles step compensation for the Eminence Deltalite 12, we're looking at an overall efficiency of 95db.
Do you have any practical listening time with the Faital?.....how does it compare to the beloved TC9? Horizontal off axis response is obviously important in this application.....the wider the better. I'd be willing to accept a loss of efficiency for a better SQ performance. Power comes pretty cheap these days where PA systems are concerned and I'd probably be using INuke amps with DSP for this system.
Couldn't find the picture I posted ages ago, but circa 1925?, RCA sold a vertical line array of large 'FR' drivers fitted to each side of the cinema screen and individually aimed as required, but W.E.'s [multiple] horn system prevailed, though considering all its shortcomings, not sure if they 'bought' the market or not, at least in smaller venues where there wasn't the need for the high peak SPLs required for the large 'palaces' of the day.
GM
Agree 100%; not for the F1 [which I wasn't aware of], but WRT their prosound systems in general back when I was exposed to a number of Fostex, B0$3 prosound monitor systems of various designs, sizes used at trade shows in 2000-2003 and WRT the latter, was impressed enough to want to use them for small room ~ high end HIFI and even [then] large HT apps till I learned how expensive they were.
Anyway, thanks for the 'heads up', hopefully there's a demo for them at the local distributor to update my opinion for better or worse.
GM
While line arrays certainly aren't new, there does appear to be a couple of features of this product that aren't commonplace. Specifically the 4 adjustable dispersion patterns with EQ automatically selected by magnetic switching, and what appears to be a very flexible interface between the line array section and extended bass module. Take a quick scan of the manualhttps://assets.bose.com/content/dam...df/f1_subwoofer_pkg_PDF_ownersguide_MULTI.pdf
No doubt there might be lots of driver models available to the DIYer or small OEM that could fit the bill for such an application, but the assertion that the complete functionality of this system could easily be replicated should perhaps be re-examined.
I've never been a fan of any of the Bose products I've heard over the past 45yrs, but in the specialized application for which these are intended, there are likely more factors than just the obvious number of drivers in however many boxes.
edit - this should probably really reside in the PA Systems forum, that's what these are
No doubt there might be lots of driver models available to the DIYer or small OEM that could fit the bill for such an application, but the assertion that the complete functionality of this system could easily be replicated should perhaps be re-examined.
I've never been a fan of any of the Bose products I've heard over the past 45yrs, but in the specialized application for which these are intended, there are likely more factors than just the obvious number of drivers in however many boxes.
edit - this should probably really reside in the PA Systems forum, that's what these are
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100% agree, one will either probably need a rack full of processors or be an advanced electronics designer to match this much processing. Then again, with all the sound signal processing already being done in cheap boomboxes, HT receivers, maybe just need to be able to remove/install, gang together existing processors from used gear onto a new board and/or bought super cheap on ebay for all I know. Certainly 'light years' beyond my DIYing capabilities 
.
GM
.GM
Thanks. I'm going to get one of each I think including a driver from Dynadio that has a rising response above 10khz which might be of benefit considering the losses from comb filtering.
100% agree, one will either probably need a rack full of processors or be an advanced electronics designer to match this much processing. Then again, with all the sound signal processing already being done in cheap boomboxes, HT receivers, maybe just need to be able to remove/install, gang together existing processors from used gear onto a new board and/or bought super cheap on ebay for all I know. Certainly 'light years' beyond my DIYing capabilities
GM
I don't plan on designing these along with the variable dispersion patterns as I don't expect to be using them on a high stage focused at the floor crowd or in high ceiling venues with multi tier seating.....I'd allow for a house install in those cases.
My purpose is for smaller clubs/ venues that are typical.....low riser stages and level floors throughout the venue and avoid ceiling reflections where possible. Adjustable height would fit the bill just fine.
My thoughts here are that the array of fullrange drivers is going to outperform the typical 1-2" horn driver along the lines of Distortion and response smoothness. Given ambient background noise levels consistent with these venues, I question the need for useful response above 10-12khz so I believe the 3-3.5" class fullrange driver will fit that bill.
As I mentioned earlier, the BOSE system clarity really wowed me....I could not believe the clarity of dynamic moments,.....a blues guitar solo, harmonica, boosted vocal accents, and trumpet.......no sibilance, no breakup, just plain solid performance.....something a single compact horn really struggles with.
Well of course, this being a Bose product, there's gotta be some proprietary magic going on in the EQ / amps stages that justify every penny of the market price -
as Stephen Colbert would say after taking a beat - "just kidding"
The need for less flexibility should no doubt simply the design and driver selection process. The Faital Pro that XRK mentioned would seem like an excellent candidate - it certainly has smoother FR specs than the similarly sized and priced Eminence Alpha 4, and I'd think the less aberrations you need to deal with in your EQ / XO , the better.
Four, or six of those per side, with a pair of say the 10FE200 woofers in a separate cabinet per side could be a good start.
XRK - pardon if this has been asked elsewhere - have you had opportunity to compare the Neo vs Ferrite versions of any of the Faitals? At almost twice the cost for the particular model in question, there'd need to be a big sonic advantage.
For powering Something like the minidsp ICE125 power amp would be worth looking at miniDSP PWR-ICE125 2 x 125 Watt DSP ICEpower Plate Amplifier
as Stephen Colbert would say after taking a beat - "just kidding"
The need for less flexibility should no doubt simply the design and driver selection process. The Faital Pro that XRK mentioned would seem like an excellent candidate - it certainly has smoother FR specs than the similarly sized and priced Eminence Alpha 4, and I'd think the less aberrations you need to deal with in your EQ / XO , the better.
Four, or six of those per side, with a pair of say the 10FE200 woofers in a separate cabinet per side could be a good start.
XRK - pardon if this has been asked elsewhere - have you had opportunity to compare the Neo vs Ferrite versions of any of the Faitals? At almost twice the cost for the particular model in question, there'd need to be a big sonic advantage.
For powering Something like the minidsp ICE125 power amp would be worth looking at miniDSP PWR-ICE125 2 x 125 Watt DSP ICEpower Plate Amplifier
The Faital Pro 3 inch drivers are very good drivers for this application. Faital spec's high sensitivities for their units versus most of the other 3" driver choices. Higher sensitivity is always the trump card for a PA application.
The Faital 3" units come with either iron magnets or neo magnets so you can trade between low weight but higher price vs. cheaper cost at more weight. If you plan to travel with these speakers, then neo drivers would be the way to go.
I like that the 3" Faital units are available in 4, 8, and 16 ohms nominal impedance which gives you flexibility in how you connect them in line arrays. When it comes to series and parallel connections as you will have for an array, the high impedance units can offer more flexibility and more sensitivity.
The 3" Faital drivers can be stacked with 3.19" minimal c-t-c spacing which will help mitigate higher frequency roll off.
For a smaller driver with likely better high end sound consider the Don Keele CBT24 array (see Parts Express site for details) or the variation I made with SB Acoustics SB65 drivers.
My New Line Array--It's a Modified CBT24
For wiring a straight line array see my white paper on near field arrays.
http://www.audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf
The Faital 3" units come with either iron magnets or neo magnets so you can trade between low weight but higher price vs. cheaper cost at more weight. If you plan to travel with these speakers, then neo drivers would be the way to go.
I like that the 3" Faital units are available in 4, 8, and 16 ohms nominal impedance which gives you flexibility in how you connect them in line arrays. When it comes to series and parallel connections as you will have for an array, the high impedance units can offer more flexibility and more sensitivity.
The 3" Faital drivers can be stacked with 3.19" minimal c-t-c spacing which will help mitigate higher frequency roll off.
For a smaller driver with likely better high end sound consider the Don Keele CBT24 array (see Parts Express site for details) or the variation I made with SB Acoustics SB65 drivers.
My New Line Array--It's a Modified CBT24
For wiring a straight line array see my white paper on near field arrays.
http://www.audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf
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Thank you Jim. The SBAcoutics driver is also under consideration as is a substantially more expensive unit from Celestion.
Each BOSE unit retails for $1200 or so, and I've allotted an equal amount for my design including external amplification and cabling including an INuke3000dsp per side.....which leaves more than enough for construction materials at the highest Driver pricing.
I've not given consideration to the design of the BOSE subs as I'm a firm believer in 18" drivers where LF PA applications are concerned.
Each BOSE unit retails for $1200 or so, and I've allotted an equal amount for my design including external amplification and cabling including an INuke3000dsp per side.....which leaves more than enough for construction materials at the highest Driver pricing.
I've not given consideration to the design of the BOSE subs as I'm a firm believer in 18" drivers where LF PA applications are concerned.
All those suggestions are great.
It will mostly depend on your budget. Don't want to spend too much? Get the TC9s. Want a bit more? Both SBa or Faital would be great. Getting the higher sensitivity drivers will also mean you will need the subwoofer to match, or multiple drivers there too.
I like to keep my life simple. If you wire 9 drivers in groups of 3x3, you will stay at the same impedance as you start with using a single driver. Do not try power shading the drivers as you will lose the distortion-less ability of the arrays.
And for setting the whole thing up, I would go with a MiniDSP 2x4 unit, then you are free to use its DSP power to adjust the sound to the venue, add EQ, Compressor, and change XO curves. You can then choose your amps that will power the whole system. The Pro class D amps are getting better every year, and also very light to carry around.
Another option is to go with a Pro audio interface instead of the MiniDSP. These days, many of them include DSP processing as well, and you can get 2,4,or 8-output units to use as a live mixer, add monitors, whether they are on stage or in-ear-monitors. You'll usually need a computer to do the mixing and adjustments.
Edit: I see you'll want to use the inuke dsp amps. That'll work.
It will mostly depend on your budget. Don't want to spend too much? Get the TC9s. Want a bit more? Both SBa or Faital would be great. Getting the higher sensitivity drivers will also mean you will need the subwoofer to match, or multiple drivers there too.
I like to keep my life simple. If you wire 9 drivers in groups of 3x3, you will stay at the same impedance as you start with using a single driver. Do not try power shading the drivers as you will lose the distortion-less ability of the arrays.
And for setting the whole thing up, I would go with a MiniDSP 2x4 unit, then you are free to use its DSP power to adjust the sound to the venue, add EQ, Compressor, and change XO curves. You can then choose your amps that will power the whole system. The Pro class D amps are getting better every year, and also very light to carry around.
Another option is to go with a Pro audio interface instead of the MiniDSP. These days, many of them include DSP processing as well, and you can get 2,4,or 8-output units to use as a live mixer, add monitors, whether they are on stage or in-ear-monitors. You'll usually need a computer to do the mixing and adjustments.
Edit: I see you'll want to use the inuke dsp amps. That'll work.
Going active as the Bose units are would reduce the concern of sensitivity matching between mid/tweets and woofer sections. And assuming the minidsp ICE plate amp modules are still available and have sufficient power for the task, I’d be inclined towards as few separate boxes and interconnections as possible for a mobile PA system.
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