It would mean more level capability, but less effort at the same volumes. The 2 offset sources mean that room resonances would be excited from 4 different points in space which usually means less severe dips & peaks.
dave
I'm no mathematician, but I think that might mean that I'm screwed.
Please forgive my ignorance, and I can certainly see the relationship between the height of the room and wavelengths of the frequencies, but I don't understand what it means. Could you give me the Cliff's Notes version.
It seems like I'm hosed, and that any room treatment short of raising my ceiling height won't help with the low frequency resonances I'm seeing/hearing. I might be able to improve other issues, but not those. Is that an accurate assessment?
I understand. Just being flippant about the prodigious bass of these single-driver cabinets, and how I really don't need more.
Good point on the offset sources changing the resonances. I wouldn't have thought they were far enough apart to have much of an effect on that issue.
Hosed?, maybe not exactly, but if you want for some really interesting reading - and am having trouble with insomnia, just google "taming room modes" or such.
Playing with placement of emitting sources in relation to room boundaries can be worth the effort - sometimes even a foot or two can help even things out, but then the least worst location acoustically can often fail the WAF test if applicable.
Playing with placement of emitting sources in relation to room boundaries can be worth the effort - sometimes even a foot or two can help even things out, but then the least worst location acoustically can often fail the WAF test if applicable.
Oh, it's applicable, all right. My lovely wife is quite tolerant, but the speakers are in the only place that they'll really work in our space. Might be able to tweak them a few inches, perhaps up to around 8, but that is it.
I've read some on room modes, and some treatments for them, but don't think that many/any will work in our living room. We'll see.
Take what Chris says to heart… that ceiling to floor resonance is VERY common due to the 8 ft standard ceiling height of many, many North American rooms. Raising the ceiling jut pushes that dip down. The real fix is a vaulted ceiling — i fortunately was able to design my house around the idea that there would be a hifi in it, so it is not a problem i have had to deal with.
You can EQ a hump, but not a dip. Placement can help, just like a different Zd in a TL can help kill an unwanted resonance. Trying to damp out resonances this low means trickery is needed as the thickness & placement of damping to do it by brute force is far from practical. One trick is to have a helmholtz resonantor in the trap.
Another more interesting, but not well explored, technique is to use active room treatment… a couple or more carefully placed subs designed specifically to counter room modes.
I have been speculating about combining this last function with actually using them as subs for the lowest octaves (hardly needed with the A12pwxwT… maybe a ½ octave or so) and resonance control above that. With DSP it should be doable, and not introduce more electronic haze to the mains.
dave
I've read some of what Wayne Parham and Geddes have to say on that topic, and feel it might be worth exploring. A flanking sub (or one in the corner next to my couch, or both) might be easier to implement (especially from a WAF perspective) than huge passive absorbent panels/blocks/etc. They would also be adjustable, which seems ideal. I just happen to have the sub drivers from my old speakers (Dayton RSS210-HF) that I could make some boxes for. The questions then become placement and power. Placement I can likely figure out with REW. As for power, I could use plate amps and intercept the signal from my Crown to provide the signal. Make sense, or would I be better off sending a narrow band to the subs rather than everything below Xhz?
I might also leave well enough alone for now. I rarely listen at testing levels. In fact, that was MUCH higher than I've ever played my system and I was genuinely concerned for my equipment. At normal levels the bass sounds great, and it makes sense that the resonances are directly correlated with volume.
Also, I am thinking that the testing, while borderline abusive, was quite effective at breaking in the 12pw the rest of the way. They seem to play lower with a sense of ease that they didn't have before, especially at low to moderate volume. Does this make sense?
I've used Wayne Parham's flanking subs concept with his 4 Pi Speakers. It made a big difference in measurements and sound quality.
I almost built a set of 4Pis. Got the plans from Wayne, who seems to be super cool. Sadly they are just too big for my room, especially given that they need additional bass reinforcement.
I might try the concept out at some point. Pretty sure I've got enough plywood left over to make at least one box.
How did you figure out placement? Does he have any kind of formula, or did you trial and error?
Everything is well broken in and sounding fantastic. Kudos to Mark Audio for designing/manufacturing such lovely drivers, and to Planet 10 for designing cabinets that make the most of them.
Now I need to make them prettier. I'm thinking a nice cherry or walnut veneer, but have never done it before. I can find videos on YouTube, but if any of you have advice on materials, techniques, etc. I'd appreciate it.
Now I need to make them prettier. I'm thinking a nice cherry or walnut veneer, but have never done it before. I can find videos on YouTube, but if any of you have advice on materials, techniques, etc. I'd appreciate it.
Is this design included in one of the Planet10 plansets? If so, which one?
It looks like Quattrofish is using a PLLXO. Is that the only XO, or are the electronics doing some EQ/XO duty too?
Has a passive speaker-level XO been designed for this?
Is this design transient perfect (like this one)?
I've been trying to sell a pair of Alpair 7.3eN, with no luck. I'm starting to think I'd be better served to re-purpose these in a WAW. This would be for my office/listening room, which is about 10ft wide by 11ft long by 9ft tall. I thought about building the Frugel Horn Mk3. But, I'm currently using Jeff Bagby's Solstice (which I love, BTW), and I'm afraid I've been spoiled by the bass these put out, and I'd rather not get subs involved. So the design presented here looks like it might fit the bill!
Quattrofish - any chance you're in the Chicago area?
It looks like Quattrofish is using a PLLXO. Is that the only XO, or are the electronics doing some EQ/XO duty too?
Has a passive speaker-level XO been designed for this?
Is this design transient perfect (like this one)?
I've been trying to sell a pair of Alpair 7.3eN, with no luck. I'm starting to think I'd be better served to re-purpose these in a WAW. This would be for my office/listening room, which is about 10ft wide by 11ft long by 9ft tall. I thought about building the Frugel Horn Mk3. But, I'm currently using Jeff Bagby's Solstice (which I love, BTW), and I'm afraid I've been spoiled by the bass these put out, and I'd rather not get subs involved. So the design presented here looks like it might fit the bill!
Quattrofish - any chance you're in the Chicago area?
This is a paid planset for the A12pw. Besides the A7.3 midTL there are also ones extant (or planned) for A10x, A6x and A5.2. Besides the miniOnken with separate midTweeter TL we have a planset for an A12pw/A7.3 ML-TL that is a simplier build, and has a passive XO design to go along with.
We have used it with both PLLXO & with the 4th order XO built into Chris’ Onkyo HT. No EQ but there is nothing to stop you from trying some.
Transient perfect? Depends on the XO you choose to use. Certainly the drivers are close enuff that if you use a 1st order XO it should have flat phase/transient response.
The A7.3 certainly has a big advantage over the 10F X used, which is better described as a midrange driver. And the voicing of the A12pw and the A7.3 is exceptional.
The A12pw aren’t cheap, the Silver Flute in a Woden TL goes down about the same, but cost a lot less. A quad is <$90 USD. They also fit into as small as 5 litre each if you are willing to give up some ultimate extention (say 50 Hz instaed of 35 Hz). One could imaging bass enclosures sized anywhere between these 2 extremes.
dave
We have used it with both PLLXO & with the 4th order XO built into Chris’ Onkyo HT. No EQ but there is nothing to stop you from trying some.
Transient perfect? Depends on the XO you choose to use. Certainly the drivers are close enuff that if you use a 1st order XO it should have flat phase/transient response.
The A7.3 certainly has a big advantage over the 10F X used, which is better described as a midrange driver. And the voicing of the A12pw and the A7.3 is exceptional.
The A12pw aren’t cheap, the Silver Flute in a Woden TL goes down about the same, but cost a lot less. A quad is <$90 USD. They also fit into as small as 5 litre each if you are willing to give up some ultimate extention (say 50 Hz instaed of 35 Hz). One could imaging bass enclosures sized anywhere between these 2 extremes.
dave
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