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8" Full Range driver for use in 2 way system
8" Full Range driver for use in 2 way system
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Old 28th January 2018, 01:34 AM   #1
hazard500 is offline hazard500  Australia
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Default 8" Full Range driver for use in 2 way system

Hi, I have been using Magneplanars and ribbon tweeters for over 25 years, and am totally out of touch with cone speaker systems. But I have recently retired, and with a bit of time on my hand am looking at having some fun.

I have been inspired by a colleague who has just put together a new speaker system with 2 Eminence Beta 15s in a OB U frame and one EV horn per channel. I have been helping design crossovers and EQ for the drooping horn response and in return he will help me build up my own speakers. Now I don't want to build exactly what he has done and I am keen to try out a diy design based on PureAudio Project

Trio15TB Open Baffle Speakers – PureAudioProject

I can get the Eminence drivers locally at a good price but my question is - what is the best FR driver to use. One could reasonably assume that PAP have done their homework and that the TB W8 1808 is perfect in this application but with my lack of experience with any sort of cones I am all ears to the great community we have here.

PAP also use Voxativ drivers in their upmarket model but these are getting pretty expensive (USD 2,200 per pair for the bottom of range driver!!). I have also had a quick look through the full range forum and someone said that AER drivers are the best. Well at Euro 4,000 per driver they must be freaking marvellous.

Now as I intend to cross over around 500 Herts, I am not after a full range with the best low end. Just the opposite. I am after an 8" driver with the best top end. And of course I will need high sensitivity (minimum 93dB) to match Eminence drivers.

I am obviously not going to be able to audition multiple drivers so unless there is a clearly better alternative than the Tang Band then I will stick with this.

Any thoughts? Thanks for your help.
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Old 28th January 2018, 01:44 AM   #2
Cal Weldon is offline Cal Weldon  Canada
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8" Full Range driver for use in 2 way system
At 500 hz, your options include smaller drivers for better high end and better dispersion.
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Old 28th January 2018, 06:13 AM   #3
hazard500 is offline hazard500  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Weldon View Post
At 500 hz, your options include smaller drivers for better high end and better dispersion.
Thanks for chiming in Cal. Better high end and better dispertion would be a good thing 😉 . Here is a bit more info on target design and then I would appreciate your thoughts on a nice 6" driver.

1. Crossover is intended to be 1st order. Right now I biamp and use passive line level crossover handing over from Magneplanar tympany panels to home made ribbon at 666Hertz. I want to keep this arrangement and the good thing is that its easy to experiment with different crossover points .
2. I am now looking at FaitalPro 15PR400 woofer. Trols Graveson uses this in his latest OB15 system. This has a smooth response out to 4k, much better response than Eminence drivers, so this should allow me to push crossover up a bit and use 6" FR driver as you suggest. Qts of this driver is around 0.32 so in an OB I may need ro add some low end EQ but this is not a problem.
3. My existing tympany/ ribbon system is 900mm wide, I expect to build an OB baffle just as wide and this will minimise OB bass roll off.
4. Every speaker syatem is a set of compromises. My key compromise are
A. I want to keep crossover as low as possible so that the system looks like a FR driver with just a little help in the bass.
B. I want the FR driver small enough to deliver good hf extension and dispersion. I dont want to build this then think - I need a tweeter.

So back to your point - given this, what are your thoughts on a good 6" FR driver?

Thanks Cal,
Hazard
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Old 28th January 2018, 06:57 AM   #4
planet10 is online now planet10  Canada
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8" Full Range driver for use in 2 way system
Cal is right. I have had the TB W8-1808 thru here and find it OK, but not great and overpriced. Look at the Mark Audio Alpair 10.3/10p (better at a lower price)or if you are on a tighter budget the Pluvia 7 (same sort of DDR (detail capability) but less coloured.

dave
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Old 28th January 2018, 11:42 AM   #5
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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IMHO, I'd be looking at an Alpair 10 and then a good single 15" per side.

I ran my Beyma 15P1200Nd OB for a short while (just as a messing around project) and EQ'd them flat down to 25Hz, which took 27dB of boost and the amplifier power to match. The result, however, was the best low end I've ever heard. Room modes were basically cut out, and it sounded wonderful. When cranked up, cone excursion was hitting 30mm peak-to-peak, but they're good drivers and can take that sort of (ab)use.
The 15" midbass drivers like the Eminence Beta and Faital you've mentioned wouldn't manage to go that low, but would probably manage 40Hz just fine.

My dream system would probably be a pair of those Beymas a side with a good full-range unit, but they'd be quite imposing in a UK living room.

Chris
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Old 28th January 2018, 05:03 PM   #6
norman bates is offline norman bates  United States
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I agree on the 1808, i was mad spending that much for the bump in the 1.5-3.5khz range. The 2145 I've wanted to play with at $100, but i remember an 8" basically was 2 person wide dispersion at 10', not an option for me.

Desiring the bass (not rumble) presentation of my double 15"/horn crossing at 750hz, i am trying to get more bass from my 6db 10" wide range (basically a 2-way).

Most of the 15's on 2' open baffle need 12db low pass to overcome roll off. I had 2' deep wings with a 12" full range, no bass. The beyma looks nice, they aren't cheap, for the money I'd rather try to find a 15 with shorting rings since I'd run up maybe 500hz. To me it is just another 15 with 9.5mm xmax. Most drivers don't get much louder past 100 watts, but the beyma went to the effort to get around that, but I'd rather just get more drivers.

I think double 15's running high (300hz or more) would sound fun (slam ?).
With a 6db crossover, i don't think where you cross would be an issue.
I agree a smaller driver, but then you may fry it at higher volumes, it is a toss up.
Don't worry about qts on the full ranger, even on an infinite baffle it would roll off at fs / qts, and you will be crossing way above that.


Good luck and stay posted.

Last edited by norman bates; 28th January 2018 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 29th January 2018, 10:56 AM   #7
hazard500 is offline hazard500  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
Cal is right. I have had the TB W8-1808 thru here and find it OK, but not great and overpriced. Look at the Mark Audio Alpair 10.3/10p (better at a lower price)or if you are on a tighter budget the Pluvia 7 (same sort of DDR (detail capability) but less coloured.

dave
Thanks Dave. Mark Audio is nearly half price (USD110) compared to TB W8 (USD210) (based on Madisound and PE prices). I don't doubt your assessment of their relative merits but I tempted to ask - if I stick to my original budget is there something better than both the TB and MA drivers? Or even if I spend a bit more? I obviously can't pay stupid prices (Voxativ etc) and I don't think that need to spend USD1,000 to get a great driver.
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Old 29th January 2018, 11:13 AM   #8
hazard500 is offline hazard500  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris661 View Post
IMHO, I'd be looking at an Alpair 10 and then a good single 15" per side.

I ran my Beyma 15P1200Nd OB for a short while (just as a messing around project) and EQ'd them flat down to 25Hz, which took 27dB of boost and the amplifier power to match. The result, however, was the best low end I've ever heard. Room modes were basically cut out, and it sounded wonderful. When cranked up, cone excursion was hitting 30mm peak-to-peak, but they're good drivers and can take that sort of (ab)use.
The 15" midbass drivers like the Eminence Beta and Faital you've mentioned wouldn't manage to go that low, but would probably manage 40Hz just fine.

My dream system would probably be a pair of those Beymas a side with a good full-range unit, but they'd be quite imposing in a UK living room.

Chris
Hi Chris, that Beyma driver looks like a beast - but there doesn't appear to be a downunder distributer, if I were to import these the price would be 3x higher than FaitalPro - so sadly these are off the agenda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by norman bates View Post
I agree on the 1808, i was mad spending that much for the bump in the 1.5-3.5khz range. The 2145 I've wanted to play with at $100, but i remember an 8" basically was 2 person wide dispersion at 10', not an option for me.

Desiring the bass (not rumble) presentation of my double 15"/horn crossing at 750hz, i am trying to get more bass from my 6db 10" wide range (basically a 2-way).

Most of the 15's on 2' open baffle need 12db low pass to overcome roll off. I had 2' deep wings with a 12" full range, no bass. The beyma looks nice, they aren't cheap, for the money I'd rather try to find a 15 with shorting rings since I'd run up maybe 500hz. To me it is just another 15 with 9.5mm xmax. Most drivers don't get much louder past 100 watts, but the beyma went to the effort to get around that, but I'd rather just get more drivers.

I think double 15's running high (300hz or more) would sound fun (slam ?).
With a 6db crossover, i don't think where you cross would be an issue.
I agree a smaller driver, but then you may fry it at higher volumes, it is a toss up.
Don't worry about qts on the full ranger, even on an infinite baffle it would roll off at fs / qts, and you will be crossing way above that.


Good luck and stay posted.
Thanks Norman, the TB 2145 loks OK on paper and much cheaper than the 1808 (ferrite vs neo I guess). But I get the point the point about dispersion. However I just measured the distance from my couch to the speakers - its 14 ft. Does that make dispersion less of an issue? (and if it does help - I better not move house again).
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Old 29th January 2018, 11:27 AM   #9
planet10 is online now planet10  Canada
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8" Full Range driver for use in 2 way system
I don’t play much in really expensive drivers so can’t comment on the growing range of $400+ each drivers that are popping up in the ”lowther” niche. The Mark Audios are really good value for the dollar.

AER, Voxativ, Sonindo, Cube are some of the new players in the 6-8” with whizzers niche. The SAL (sold exclusivly at the diyAudio store) is aimed specifically at OBs. Also the big Alnico SEAs, and a recently mentioned Audax. but i haven’t heard any of these ones.

I personally think if you can get away without whizzers…

The SEAs FA22, and Visaton B200 (really needs phase plugs, has no whizzer) are ones i have heard that i like. The Betsys aren’t bad. The FA22 & Betsy reasonably priced members of the Lowther niche. The Fostex FE206 fits in the niche as well, but i think of it more in a BIG horn like Vulcan.

And to toot my own horn, you could consider an EnABLed version of the A10p. Treatment & matching to make them even better.

Click the image to open in full size.

EnABLing is something that can be done to any of these drivers… and can be diyed, but you really need practise on some less critical drivers. All you need to know is here on the forum and Bud & i are happy to coach. All the drivers i’ve heard ended up modified and better than can be had off the shelf.

And if the A10p is mentioned, the A10.3 (metal cone version) should be mentioned, and the Jordan Eikona (i’ve not heard). Ted Jordan’s last efforts, and reportedly very good, it would have to be REALLY good to outperform the A10.3 which is its closest competitor. To put this in perspective, Mark Fenlon (the Mark in Mark Audio) was Ted’s apprentice for 5 years so they came from the same DNA.

I’m sure i have missed some candidates. Right the Audio Nirvanas. The every small sample i’ve heard were either crap or had potential (but overpriced).

That should give you some food for thot.

Also, take the sensitivity ratings with a grain of salt. The W8-1808 for instance is ~91 dB, the Visaton B200, 90 dB to give a couple examples.

dave
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Old 29th January 2018, 11:31 PM   #10
hazard500 is offline hazard500  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
I don’t play much in really expensive drivers so can’t comment on the growing range of $400+ each drivers that are popping up in the ”lowther” niche. The Mark Audios are really good value for the dollar.

AER, Voxativ, Sonindo, Cube are some of the new players in the 6-8” with whizzers niche. The SAL (sold exclusivly at the diyAudio store) is aimed specifically at OBs. Also the big Alnico SEAs, and a recently mentioned Audax. but i haven’t heard any of these ones.

I personally think if you can get away without whizzers…

The SEAs FA22, and Visaton B200 (really needs phase plugs, has no whizzer) are ones i have heard that i like. The Betsys aren’t bad. The FA22 & Betsy reasonably priced members of the Lowther niche. The Fostex FE206 fits in the niche as well, but i think of it more in a BIG horn like Vulcan.

And to toot my own horn, you could consider an EnABLed version of the A10p. Treatment & matching to make them even better.

Click the image to open in full size.

EnABLing is something that can be done to any of these drivers… and can be diyed, but you really need practise on some less critical drivers. All you need to know is here on the forum and Bud & i are happy to coach. All the drivers i’ve heard ended up modified and better than can be had off the shelf.

And if the A10p is mentioned, the A10.3 (metal cone version) should be mentioned, and the Jordan Eikona (i’ve not heard). Ted Jordan’s last efforts, and reportedly very good, it would have to be REALLY good to outperform the A10.3 which is its closest competitor. To put this in perspective, Mark Fenlon (the Mark in Mark Audio) was Ted’s apprentice for 5 years so they came from the same DNA.

I’m sure i have missed some candidates. Right the Audio Nirvanas. The every small sample i’ve heard were either crap or had potential (but overpriced).

That should give you some food for thot.

Also, take the sensitivity ratings with a grain of salt. The W8-1808 for instance is ~91 dB, the Visaton B200, 90 dB to give a couple examples.

dave
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Thanks Dave, there's plenty to chew on here. The SAL is a bit out of my price range but then again - most of my electronics designs have been inspired by NP so if they are good enough for him....
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