I had my reservations with this TC9FD18-08 driver or other FR drivers, for that matter.
I tried that Nola clone, haphazard as it is, based on what seems to be several interpretations of the design.
Well heck, these little drivers in that situation sound quite nice indeed. Electric violin? Holy crap, man. Talk about riveting and real sounding. I have had them on for 4 days now and I have to force myself away from them and make myself go to bed. I'm no audiophile, but I have a rather nice collection of all different types of speakers.
Anyway, I am intrigued now. I want to try other designs.
I have a pair of Dayton PA130-8 that I don't remember buying, or why, and a pair of Mark Audio 10.3.
I did start a thread asking about the MA drivers and got some info there and reckon I need to purchase some plans for those (info needed as to how to go about that).
But what about these Dayton PA speakers? I have seen the thread about the .53x Karlson but those threads go for a lot of pages and I was not exactly sure which drawing went to what without starting over in that thread.
What I have for amplification is, a Denon 3805 with a separate DSP amp for my 12" subwoofer. Some amp boards (TDA8932) that I got for something else, a monoprice 50w hybrid and some old integrated amps (HK and pioneer) and another 2 channel board with a fan on it made by Sure, IIRC.
What could I expect from the PA130's compared to the Peerless TC9FD18-08? Would any of these amp boards work with these FR builds? If so, what to use specifically for a power supply? I read about laptop power supplies but they come in a variety of power ratings.
The Karlson types look interesting. Would 17-18 mm plywood work for that?
Any help would be appreciated.
I tried that Nola clone, haphazard as it is, based on what seems to be several interpretations of the design.
Well heck, these little drivers in that situation sound quite nice indeed. Electric violin? Holy crap, man. Talk about riveting and real sounding. I have had them on for 4 days now and I have to force myself away from them and make myself go to bed. I'm no audiophile, but I have a rather nice collection of all different types of speakers.
Anyway, I am intrigued now. I want to try other designs.
I have a pair of Dayton PA130-8 that I don't remember buying, or why, and a pair of Mark Audio 10.3.
I did start a thread asking about the MA drivers and got some info there and reckon I need to purchase some plans for those (info needed as to how to go about that).
But what about these Dayton PA speakers? I have seen the thread about the .53x Karlson but those threads go for a lot of pages and I was not exactly sure which drawing went to what without starting over in that thread.
What I have for amplification is, a Denon 3805 with a separate DSP amp for my 12" subwoofer. Some amp boards (TDA8932) that I got for something else, a monoprice 50w hybrid and some old integrated amps (HK and pioneer) and another 2 channel board with a fan on it made by Sure, IIRC.
What could I expect from the PA130's compared to the Peerless TC9FD18-08? Would any of these amp boards work with these FR builds? If so, what to use specifically for a power supply? I read about laptop power supplies but they come in a variety of power ratings.
The Karlson types look interesting. Would 17-18 mm plywood work for that?
Any help would be appreciated.
MrBoat,
Welcome to the world of the little TC9FD! It was this driver that got me started in DIY audio 5 years ago. You can follow my progression of experiments and builds with this driver here, there are probably two dozen speakers that I made with this driver shown on the index on page 1. I have not made the Nola, but it looks like a nice design that is an open back version of the dual driver TC9FD Nautaloss that I made here, and that was a superb sounding speaker. The rear chamber in a way, mimics the openess and lack of coloration of an open back speaker, but without the added ambiance of an OB.
So you want to try a mini Karlsonator? The 0.53x scale with dual TC9FD is one of the best sounding speakers I have made. It needs to be made of foamcore boards for the best sound though. There is a lot of damping that the foamcore boards provide plus, they re-radiate some of the sound to allow an ambiance much like what you hear with the Nola. Some people who have made them out of plywood complain that they don not sound good, most recently Perceval. He then re-made it in foam (XPS boards) and the sound was good. The PA130-8 also sounds excellent in the same 0.53x scale enclosure. Literally the same, because I replaced the baffle board on my which had the dual TC9FD's. Now, these speakers will not measure flat, and I am not saying they are flat in frequency response. However, what comes out ends up being very neutral sounding and very musical and dynamic. The 0.40x scale in foam core is a very easy build and you can experience the Karlson magic within hours.
All the class D amps you mention I have tried and use. The TDA8932 (Sanwu monoblock) is excellent and probably one of the best in terms of bass and midrange clarity. Class AB chipamps are also excellent. You can find the TDA7297 "Lunchmoney" amp for $4 and that is also excellent. Change a few caps on it and it is superb.
I think Twocents gave you a good synopsis of the relevant posts to help you get started so you don't have to read the whole thread. Now is the time to start building - make it out of foamcore first. Go to the nearest Dollartree and get maybe 5 sheets and you will have some fun with many speakers. You need a hot melt glue gun and sticks of glue too. Best prices on hot melt glue is probably Walmart in fabric crafts section.
Regarding power supplies, simple 19v laptop SMPS work fine. Some are quieter than others. I used cheap $7 ones for many years, but when those were pressed to headphone amp duty, I could hear the noise. However, for speakers, they worked fine. Major brand OEM SMPS bricks from HP or Dell are much quieter and will run about $15 new on eBay. For the TDA7297, maybe try the 12v SMPS for external hard disk drives as 19v sometimes makes a bit too much heat on those Class AB amps without a proper heatsink. Another amp that is pretty good sounding is TDA7498 for about $12. When used with a 32v SMPS (DC step up from 19v) you can get up to 100w, and they sound great with built in anti-pop, volume control, and a nice heatsink.
Good luck and have fun.
Welcome to the world of the little TC9FD! It was this driver that got me started in DIY audio 5 years ago. You can follow my progression of experiments and builds with this driver here, there are probably two dozen speakers that I made with this driver shown on the index on page 1. I have not made the Nola, but it looks like a nice design that is an open back version of the dual driver TC9FD Nautaloss that I made here, and that was a superb sounding speaker. The rear chamber in a way, mimics the openess and lack of coloration of an open back speaker, but without the added ambiance of an OB.
So you want to try a mini Karlsonator? The 0.53x scale with dual TC9FD is one of the best sounding speakers I have made. It needs to be made of foamcore boards for the best sound though. There is a lot of damping that the foamcore boards provide plus, they re-radiate some of the sound to allow an ambiance much like what you hear with the Nola. Some people who have made them out of plywood complain that they don not sound good, most recently Perceval. He then re-made it in foam (XPS boards) and the sound was good. The PA130-8 also sounds excellent in the same 0.53x scale enclosure. Literally the same, because I replaced the baffle board on my which had the dual TC9FD's. Now, these speakers will not measure flat, and I am not saying they are flat in frequency response. However, what comes out ends up being very neutral sounding and very musical and dynamic. The 0.40x scale in foam core is a very easy build and you can experience the Karlson magic within hours.
All the class D amps you mention I have tried and use. The TDA8932 (Sanwu monoblock) is excellent and probably one of the best in terms of bass and midrange clarity. Class AB chipamps are also excellent. You can find the TDA7297 "Lunchmoney" amp for $4 and that is also excellent. Change a few caps on it and it is superb.
I think Twocents gave you a good synopsis of the relevant posts to help you get started so you don't have to read the whole thread. Now is the time to start building - make it out of foamcore first. Go to the nearest Dollartree and get maybe 5 sheets and you will have some fun with many speakers. You need a hot melt glue gun and sticks of glue too. Best prices on hot melt glue is probably Walmart in fabric crafts section.
Regarding power supplies, simple 19v laptop SMPS work fine. Some are quieter than others. I used cheap $7 ones for many years, but when those were pressed to headphone amp duty, I could hear the noise. However, for speakers, they worked fine. Major brand OEM SMPS bricks from HP or Dell are much quieter and will run about $15 new on eBay. For the TDA7297, maybe try the 12v SMPS for external hard disk drives as 19v sometimes makes a bit too much heat on those Class AB amps without a proper heatsink. Another amp that is pretty good sounding is TDA7498 for about $12. When used with a 32v SMPS (DC step up from 19v) you can get up to 100w, and they sound great with built in anti-pop, volume control, and a nice heatsink.
Good luck and have fun.
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I thought they were going to need a tweeter initially but it ended up being some rather minor EQ adjustments from the soundcard software. High hats and even triangle/chimes come thru along with the highest violin and piano notes. There really isn't much more going on above that with what I listen to and the detail is definitely there in that range as well.
I was ready to condemn the design and move onto something else with the drivers before I even completed the boxes thinking that this could not possibly work. They are even better near field. I went right from a pair of Fusion-12 Tempests to the clone speakers in 5 minutes time using the same system so the comparisons were rather fresh. I think it's ridiculous that those cheap, tiny little drivers are managing what they do.
I will look for the MTM you are talking about and I appreciate the suggestion.
Thank you very much for taking the time to post all of this. This should keep me busy for awhile.
After reading some of the reports of the NBT clone, I am curious as to the reported, "off axis beaming." I am not experiencing this condition. Admittedly, my room is acoustically easy. I cannot find these speakers in this room. Even near field arrangement say, 4ft back from them there is no real perception of left/right.
I built these out of 17.8mm plywood with the same external dimensions as the originals. The only difference being, I set the exterior of the slanted roof of the box section at 6", and up to the front baffle at 15 degrees from there. Also used a full 45 degree bevel behind both drivers.
I did not center the driver in the lower box section and there is exactly 2" between both drivers or approx. 5.25" OC.
I do not know how much difference these changes make, or that from using the size plywood I used. I have been trying to find a fault with these and now wish I would have made the boxes nicer. As it is, will take some creative bodywork to make them nice, being I was a little rambunctious with the RO sander.
I built these out of 17.8mm plywood with the same external dimensions as the originals. The only difference being, I set the exterior of the slanted roof of the box section at 6", and up to the front baffle at 15 degrees from there. Also used a full 45 degree bevel behind both drivers.
I did not center the driver in the lower box section and there is exactly 2" between both drivers or approx. 5.25" OC.
I do not know how much difference these changes make, or that from using the size plywood I used. I have been trying to find a fault with these and now wish I would have made the boxes nicer. As it is, will take some creative bodywork to make them nice, being I was a little rambunctious with the RO sander.
I can try the foam core. I have the tools for that as well.
As far as measuring flat, I don't much care about that. Some of the best speakers I've heard were designed without sims, or, before there was such a thing.
My brother built a pair of stereo speakers out of pioneer (either 4 or 6 in each cab) 6x9 car coaxial drivers in about the mid 1970's that used to put our roommate's Advents to shame, at least with 60's-70's rock music.
I found your thread. I will try your version with the tweeter as well. Thank you for posting it.
Ignoring size the Frugel-Horn XL & the Pensil are likely the best. FHXL plans cost you a min $10 donation to diyAudio (email me the receipt to get the plan URL. Pensil plans are free. available at frugal-phile.com.
Scott has a free simple reflex box. woden design simple reflex OV9. planet10 (me) has a paid planset with a number of the A10x versions of the miniOnkens (mostly standmounts --now over 50 pages).
A metronome. Jim Griffin ML-TL. Woden Silbury.
dave
Thank you. Will be getting in touch about the minionken most likely. What is it that it does better over the simple bass reflex?
I really don't have anymore room for large speakers. This room does as well with smaller ones. I have access to miles of aluminum pipe for stands and a full on, industrial scale welding op here at home.
The high ratio slot vents add an R to the vent (equation). This pushes the box towards aperiodic and makes it more tolerant of dynamic changes in T/S parameters. This means that the bass — which only goes as low as it goes — is articulate & elegant.
The harder to build ones with the slot vents on the side have big champhers which help reduce the boxes diffraction signature, the trapezoid version taking it a step further with a plan section that is a teardrop-like shape. Further these full-on miniOnken with their double sidewalls (with an airspace) and holey/driver brace have a low probability of any potential resonance ever being excited by music playing thru them. These all combine to make a box that can “disappear”.
dave
dave
The better ones is what I would likely shoot for. My room does well with bass. Even speakers that are designed to be paired with subs, end up needing very little. These would be just for music. Mid bass/range is where most of what I listen to falls into. Even the subs I use rarely see below 40ish.
Email sent.
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I looked at the TC9 in a miniOnken, but its parameters would not work. We instead put it into a 5.5 litre milliSize box… essentially an IB. The Qt of this driver is high and in any box other than an appropriatly sized OB it will have a bump up in the bass, something some people like. Our issues with this driver was not its bass performance.
dave
dave