About impedance calculation specifically REW verse DATS i think they pretty much the same, in my previous post i just tried to hint that down the road one can execute and rise performance for diy stuff even better if one can get data up much higher in frq.
Wesayso sent me a REW created zma file in past to develop resonance and inductance compensation networks, below you can see it (grey) compared to mine (blue) DATS created zma file overlaid into XSim and think they probably pretty much the same when we take into account that wesayso's is 25 drivers into damped enclosure and mine is one driver in free air.
Wesayso sent me a REW created zma file in past to develop resonance and inductance compensation networks, below you can see it (grey) compared to mine (blue) DATS created zma file overlaid into XSim and think they probably pretty much the same when we take into account that wesayso's is 25 drivers into damped enclosure and mine is one driver in free air.
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Sounds good. I went ahead and ordered one. Although I'm a little scared it's going to tell me there are lots of problems! Although I suppose part of the fun is fixing those problems.
Separate topic... To wesayso's point about avoiding vertical surfaces, does anyone have any inspiration that would help determine how to create the absorption panels with minimal reflectivity issues? I'm tempted to just wrap the batting in fabric, hang them on the wall, and call it a day. But I would like to have them wrapped in a photo printed canvas if possible. I was thinking maybe the frame can be a low profile one. For example, the "frame" could perhaps be made of just a metal wire, similar to a coat hanger in size, and the canvas can wrap the insulation and get clipped to the wire. The four sides would be rounded over so it would be an untraditional look at best. But it eliminates the reflection point. Any other ideas on how to execute?
Separate topic... To wesayso's point about avoiding vertical surfaces, does anyone have any inspiration that would help determine how to create the absorption panels with minimal reflectivity issues? I'm tempted to just wrap the batting in fabric, hang them on the wall, and call it a day. But I would like to have them wrapped in a photo printed canvas if possible. I was thinking maybe the frame can be a low profile one. For example, the "frame" could perhaps be made of just a metal wire, similar to a coat hanger in size, and the canvas can wrap the insulation and get clipped to the wire. The four sides would be rounded over so it would be an untraditional look at best. But it eliminates the reflection point. Any other ideas on how to execute?
I'd consider making wooden top & bottom plates, which would define the shape & depth of the panels. Vertically space these plates with all-thread, leaving a few inches between the panels' outer edges & the rods. The outer cover would need to be stretched tightly for clean vertical lines.
I also have DATS, and it's been invaluable for me, as the driver manufacturers around here do not give any T/S data, just the size and how much the driver weighs!!!
It's a LOT easier to measure impedance, no more fiddling around with a resistor, cable mess, etc... just connected and click with the mouse. So nice.
And yes, it's also nice to double check capacitors and resistors values as I've had some that were wildly off what was written on them.
It's a great tool I should have bought a long time ago.
It's a LOT easier to measure impedance, no more fiddling around with a resistor, cable mess, etc... just connected and click with the mouse. So nice.
And yes, it's also nice to double check capacitors and resistors values as I've had some that were wildly off what was written on them.
It's a great tool I should have bought a long time ago.
Thanks for the ideas on the absorption panels. Is the prevailing wisdom to focus on absorption where possible and diffusion if not? Or should they be combined in some intelligent way? Diffusors are probably less wife friendly but may be an option.
Good to hear DATS has been helpful. I agree perceval, that ease of use and saving time is a good thing to invest in.
Good to hear DATS has been helpful. I agree perceval, that ease of use and saving time is a good thing to invest in.
Also, any ideas for how to use the MLV I have left over? I have about 24 sq ft worth... about 4'x6'. One idea is to install behind the wet bar I'm planning behind my couch to help insulate sound from getting to the neighbor on the other side of that wall. It won't nearly cover that full area (12'x8') but it's something.
The wet bar at the rear will actually be a little bit like that. I may be able to add some extra built into the doors or at the fascia. The harder ones will be the wall above the couch and then in front of the french doors. Although the french door ones could probably be removable and I can store them somewhere. Or even make them moveable almost like sliding curtains.
It's a matter of taste if you should use diffusion and how or where. Due to my listening area being relatively small I only used absorption. I'd highly recommend absorbing all early reflections within the first 7 to 10 ms. I went a step further and absorbed all reflections in the first 20 ms, only to add virtual diffused signals later on (ambience channels).
I'd say use diffusion for reflective spots arriving after the first ~10 ms. It will add a sense of liveliness.
Reason for me to absorb everything and add virtual queues is that I can determine it's content completely. I use it to hide the real size of the listening space. You seem to have plenty space behind the listening couch, diffusion should work there. Maybe even put some home made diffusors like Bwaslo showed us to build along the side walls about 1 to 1.5 meter behind the couch. Providing scattered/diffused laterally arriving queues.
Or just absorb any mayor reflections and put in some ambient channels later on that double as surrounds for movies.
It's your call
. Look at this thread to see how a carefully planned listening room could look.If you look closely, you'll see he reroutes the sound from the speakers in a planned way. The left speaker bounces off of a deflector behind the listening spot at the rear right to finally arrive from the left side again and vice versa.
This creates a delayed reflection acting as a Haas kicker, in this instance about 24 ms after the main peak. Everything that arrives at that listening spot is carefully planned.
Even Jim uses virtual ambience queues to supplement his planned rerouted sound.We may be a couple of mad men stretching every bit of opportunity though
. You decide....P.S. The measurements I've seen from that room were like no other I have ever seen taken at a listening spot. Approaching textbook perfection all done without any form of DSP. An amazing room and a work of art without any form of appeal to or for the significant other, sorry. An interesting study and proof of what can be done.
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Wow, that's impressive. Good to know what one extreme is so I can decide what to dial in to my own situation. I think it will likely be first reflection points and perhaps a diffuser at the rear depending on what I do with the wet bar. Good news is the nature of my corner line arrays means the floor and ceiling bounces don't need addressing. And there is no real rear reflection (meaning behind the speakers).
But I am excited to get the room as good as I can get it within reason. Like I mentioned previously, just throwing the roxul up as I did had a big impact on the sound stage. There were a couple times where I had to confirm that my center channel wasn't active because the "phantom center effect" was so convincing.
I may try to address the edges at the projector screen somehow as I have a feeling that may be the next biggest fish to fry as far a reflections go. Might not be super easy to do so in a subtle way though. And I want to see if I can measure that reflection somewhere once I get a chance to dig into that analysis a bit. The edge is not very far from the speaker but based on RA7's experience, my guess is it will show up!
But I am excited to get the room as good as I can get it within reason. Like I mentioned previously, just throwing the roxul up as I did had a big impact on the sound stage. There were a couple times where I had to confirm that my center channel wasn't active because the "phantom center effect" was so convincing.
I may try to address the edges at the projector screen somehow as I have a feeling that may be the next biggest fish to fry as far a reflections go. Might not be super easy to do so in a subtle way though. And I want to see if I can measure that reflection somewhere once I get a chance to dig into that analysis a bit. The edge is not very far from the speaker but based on RA7's experience, my guess is it will show up!
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For room ideas you might want to read this thread for some interesting information.
I've linked to the discussion of the last ~24 hours, it has been mentioned earlier in this same thread. I've experienced the differences. I think it is a valid point.
Depending on favourite kind of music, they might need different approaches.
I've linked to the discussion of the last ~24 hours, it has been mentioned earlier in this same thread. I've experienced the differences. I think it is a valid point.
Depending on favourite kind of music, they might need different approaches.
Very interesting link as they are discussing the different preferences in room behaviour for different kinds of music types.
Live orchestral music listeners(Field recordings as Geddes calls them) tend to prefer more early reflections than studio music listeners and Geddes says he has come to the conclusion, that you have to decide, what kind of music you want to play, when determining what kind of room treatment you are going to use, as you cannot make a room that is good for both! What a bummer!!
I want both!!
Well maybe your(wesayso) solution is the right one: Control (eliminate) the early reflections and add controlled reflections by means of a Haas Kicker/surround speakers to suit the music you are playing, having a set of curves/levels/delays for each kind of music?
Until I took away most room queues I think I had that same idea. I could have written that same sentence back then.
But taking away the room had other downsides for my perception of the music.
I had always planned on trying ambient channels, I just never realized how much I actually needed them.
If you talk about a "dryer" reproduction, what is your experience with that? Most rooms do add more than we generally are aware of. Our brain is very good at filtering those parts out, make us believe it sounds way better (or dryer) than it actually is. Just for fun, record the sound you get at the listening spot and listen to that recording trough headphones. It will show you just how good those semi automatic filters are.
Only after removing a lot of my early room queues I became more aware of the role they can play in our perception. Things like stereo cross talk become much more obvious after taking away the random reflections. This set me on an entirely different quest. Most of it I've written down in that huge thread of mine.
Now I (almost) get to pick how much room I'd like. I really don't add all that much, still it's crucial for my listening pleasure. It completes the believable stage in front of me.
Consider going to a concert in a bad room, much less enjoyable. What I want is a good room, this can enhance/supplement the experience of that front stage. I do have a couple of favourite places to go see some bands I like. Other venues can disappoint in comparison.
Just to be clear, I don't hear sounds coming from the back. I just get a more believable rendition of what's there in the recording. It's much like a sound hologram in front of you. That's my preference. It may not be yours, no way to know until you try.
There is a big difference between a studio environment and a listening environment. I used to think I wanted the first, now I know better, I actually want a listening environment. Jim1961's awesome room is a dedicated listening environment. Much better than mine will ever be. On first sight it looks like a studio control room. The meticulously planned arrivals of the sound wave are planned for enjoyment. That includes the use of that Haas kicker.
But taking away the room had other downsides for my perception of the music.
I had always planned on trying ambient channels, I just never realized how much I actually needed them
.If you talk about a "dryer" reproduction, what is your experience with that? Most rooms do add more than we generally are aware of. Our brain is very good at filtering those parts out, make us believe it sounds way better (or dryer) than it actually is. Just for fun, record the sound you get at the listening spot and listen to that recording trough headphones. It will show you just how good those semi automatic filters are.
Only after removing a lot of my early room queues I became more aware of the role they can play in our perception. Things like stereo cross talk become much more obvious after taking away the random reflections. This set me on an entirely different quest. Most of it I've written down in that huge thread of mine.
Now I (almost) get to pick how much room I'd like. I really don't add all that much, still it's crucial for my listening pleasure. It completes the believable stage in front of me.
Consider going to a concert in a bad room, much less enjoyable. What I want is a good room, this can enhance/supplement the experience of that front stage. I do have a couple of favourite places to go see some bands I like. Other venues can disappoint in comparison.
Just to be clear, I don't hear sounds coming from the back. I just get a more believable rendition of what's there in the recording. It's much like a sound hologram in front of you. That's my preference. It may not be yours, no way to know until you try.
There is a big difference between a studio environment and a listening environment. I used to think I wanted the first, now I know better, I actually want a listening environment. Jim1961's awesome room is a dedicated listening environment. Much better than mine will ever be. On first sight it looks like a studio control room. The meticulously planned arrivals of the sound wave are planned for enjoyment. That includes the use of that Haas kicker.
So you're saying that your brain doesn't semi-automatically filter out what is recorded at the listening position when it's played back through headphones? In which case I would presumably NOT like the sound played through the headphones?
Do you need a good microphone for this or can I just use my UMIK?
I use the impulses gathered at the listening position for that test.
Same way we use convolution for correcting a speaker one can also use convolution to "listen" to the sweet spot. I used my measurement mic for that, yes.
I won't tell you what you'll hear, you be the judge of that. If headphones don't do it for you, you "could" play back the recording trough the speakers. Effectively doubling the room effects. I would not recommend that though. I actually did that, had a hard time to unlearn it afterwards. In other words, my "semi automatic filter" was broken for a while. That's why I call it semi automatic. One can learn to hear the room.
Think of it like this, all trough life your brain has been learning to ignore what's less important, making you hear the important parts better and more clearly. We each probably differ in the way we perceive things. However we do use it to perceive our world around us. You can actually develop these skills. I was curious enough to do just that. It may spoil some very beneficial tools for you. You might like to try headphones first. I'm betting it will be enough to make my point clear.
I can't answer if you will like the sound recorded. But play it back and compare it to the original song and you should notice the differences.
Same way we use convolution for correcting a speaker one can also use convolution to "listen" to the sweet spot. I used my measurement mic for that, yes.
I won't tell you what you'll hear, you be the judge of that. If headphones don't do it for you, you "could" play back the recording trough the speakers. Effectively doubling the room effects. I would not recommend that though. I actually did that, had a hard time to unlearn it afterwards. In other words, my "semi automatic filter" was broken for a while. That's why I call it semi automatic. One can learn to hear the room.
Think of it like this, all trough life your brain has been learning to ignore what's less important, making you hear the important parts better and more clearly. We each probably differ in the way we perceive things. However we do use it to perceive our world around us. You can actually develop these skills. I was curious enough to do just that. It may spoil some very beneficial tools for you. You might like to try headphones first. I'm betting it will be enough to make my point clear.
I can't answer if you will like the sound recorded. But play it back and compare it to the original song and you should notice the differences.
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