Hi Mattes,
Nice you are also an ESL speaker lovers. For me OB is the closest approximation to ESL. But in the nearfield application I have, the benefits of OB becomes a bit less obvious to my ears than when filling a room at 2.5m listening distance. But I want to still explore this more. Maybe I should try a 2way Satori+tweeter in a flower OB (ok maybe next year lol).
I love the MicroSeiki MA-505!! It was a huge improvement over my previous RB300. I picked up a Victor QL-Y5 without arm for 5000yen (38euro) just to try with the MA-505 and wow it turned out to be fantastic combination. I have lots of cartridges, but mostly I use a Denon DL-110, but also use a denon DL-301mk2 (the gold one, not the black 103) or a Victor Z1 with an aftermarket microridge SAS needle from Jico. I don't have any ultra expensive cartridges. I don't make that much money and the denon cartridges are so good to my ears. I actually really love the cheaper DL-110 and I can get for 17,000yen (132euro) here in Tokyo.
It's strange that our simulations disagree so much on the RSS265HF. In my simulation I get a max 96db at XMAX at 25hz. The RSS265HF is 12.3mm linear XMAX (as in -12.3mm to +12.3mm or 24.6mm total excursion). I know different manufacturers and simulations use different approaches. Some will say +-12mm, others say 24mm p-p (like Seas) and others just say xmax 12mm.
I think in the end we just need to wait until I build it which might happen in January the way my December is looking right now. At least until then I can play with my small driver flowers (when I get time) which are much quicker to prototype.
I've also been working the last year (on and off) on a new enclosure for my 2way. I got new tweeters (SB29RDNC) last Christmas and still never got around to make an enclosure for them. This will be ported or aperiodic with the port/vent down firing and mounted on stands. Some work in progress pictures. Still need more sanding to smooth the joints and round over the front baffle. The bottom will be 1/3 in EVA with the port and 2/3 wood access and stand mounting panel. If the wood panel colors the sound, I will use an EVA panel and some spikes or something to mount on the stand. I'll be covering the inside with neoprene and might need to add bracing depending on the measurements. And some more pictures of the small flower for the 2" 830983 : top down of the biohazard version and then work-in-progress on a rounded over clover version. No measurements yet sorry.
cheers
Jeshi
Nice you are also an ESL speaker lovers. For me OB is the closest approximation to ESL. But in the nearfield application I have, the benefits of OB becomes a bit less obvious to my ears than when filling a room at 2.5m listening distance. But I want to still explore this more. Maybe I should try a 2way Satori+tweeter in a flower OB (ok maybe next year lol).
I love the MicroSeiki MA-505!! It was a huge improvement over my previous RB300. I picked up a Victor QL-Y5 without arm for 5000yen (38euro) just to try with the MA-505 and wow it turned out to be fantastic combination. I have lots of cartridges, but mostly I use a Denon DL-110, but also use a denon DL-301mk2 (the gold one, not the black 103) or a Victor Z1 with an aftermarket microridge SAS needle from Jico. I don't have any ultra expensive cartridges. I don't make that much money and the denon cartridges are so good to my ears. I actually really love the cheaper DL-110 and I can get for 17,000yen (132euro) here in Tokyo.
It's strange that our simulations disagree so much on the RSS265HF. In my simulation I get a max 96db at XMAX at 25hz. The RSS265HF is 12.3mm linear XMAX (as in -12.3mm to +12.3mm or 24.6mm total excursion). I know different manufacturers and simulations use different approaches. Some will say +-12mm, others say 24mm p-p (like Seas) and others just say xmax 12mm.
I think in the end we just need to wait until I build it which might happen in January the way my December is looking right now. At least until then I can play with my small driver flowers (when I get time) which are much quicker to prototype.
I've also been working the last year (on and off) on a new enclosure for my 2way. I got new tweeters (SB29RDNC) last Christmas and still never got around to make an enclosure for them. This will be ported or aperiodic with the port/vent down firing and mounted on stands. Some work in progress pictures. Still need more sanding to smooth the joints and round over the front baffle. The bottom will be 1/3 in EVA with the port and 2/3 wood access and stand mounting panel. If the wood panel colors the sound, I will use an EVA panel and some spikes or something to mount on the stand. I'll be covering the inside with neoprene and might need to add bracing depending on the measurements. And some more pictures of the small flower for the 2" 830983 : top down of the biohazard version and then work-in-progress on a rounded over clover version. No measurements yet sorry.
cheers
Jeshi
Attachments
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Hi Jeshi,
just out of curiosity, I simulated the RSS 265 in a smallish OB, without any room gain, one single speaker. To make 96 dB at 25 Hz at 1 m distance, the poor driver will have to do +- 34 mm of cone travel. Therefore it´ll need 80 V of input, which makes, due to low impedance, a whopping 1830 Watts...
OB bass was never meant to be effective. But the non-effectiveness, which is due to the omission of any mechanical amplification through resonance, leads to a potentionally clearer reproduction.
Of course, your nearfield applications will change thoese numbers a little bit. In fact, I´ve somewhere read about people using dipole woofers for subwoofer applications, positioned very close to the listener, something like less distance than dipole path. This will change a lot, but I´m not sure how to quantify the effects.
However, a relatively large flower with an 17-cm-driver might actually work in the near field... I wish you good luck and a lot of fun with it, looking forward to learn about your first aural flower experiences!
All the best
Mattes
just out of curiosity, I simulated the RSS 265 in a smallish OB, without any room gain, one single speaker. To make 96 dB at 25 Hz at 1 m distance, the poor driver will have to do +- 34 mm of cone travel. Therefore it´ll need 80 V of input, which makes, due to low impedance, a whopping 1830 Watts...
OB bass was never meant to be effective. But the non-effectiveness, which is due to the omission of any mechanical amplification through resonance, leads to a potentionally clearer reproduction.
Of course, your nearfield applications will change thoese numbers a little bit. In fact, I´ve somewhere read about people using dipole woofers for subwoofer applications, positioned very close to the listener, something like less distance than dipole path. This will change a lot, but I´m not sure how to quantify the effects.
However, a relatively large flower with an 17-cm-driver might actually work in the near field... I wish you good luck and a lot of fun with it, looking forward to learn about your first aural flower experiences!
All the best
Mattes
Hi Mattes,
Ok how about this, here is an actual measurement of my RSS265HF at 30cm with no baffle. It is outputting 86db in the flat region so my simulations show this would be with less than 1.5watts output since that would be at 1meter. And the 25hz point actually measured 79db. This perfectly matches with my simulation (79db at 25hz) without any additional OB losses. This is without any DSP correction, just the bare driver. In fact it looks like it is aligning with the simulation almost perfectly from 20hz up to 500hz where the cone brake-up starts to alter the driver response.
Can your simulation replicate this measurement from 20hz to 500hz?
Perceval, I tried a SLOB (slot-loaded-open-baffle) a few years ago with pair of very cheap 8" GRS drivers and it was a total failure. It extended the bass only minimally and added all sorts of artifacts and distortions because of the slot-loading. The SLOB is very similar to the ripole in concept except it uses two drivers. I know some people have made it work and like it, but I am not convinced and not so motivated to try it again. I suspect a simple U-frame would give the same bass lift without introducing any artifacts caused by forcing the sound into a slot. And I honestly was able to get the same bass lift from the drivers with a simple 5db DSP correction without introducing any of the strange slot-loading artifacts.
cheers
jeshi
Ok how about this, here is an actual measurement of my RSS265HF at 30cm with no baffle. It is outputting 86db in the flat region so my simulations show this would be with less than 1.5watts output since that would be at 1meter. And the 25hz point actually measured 79db. This perfectly matches with my simulation (79db at 25hz) without any additional OB losses. This is without any DSP correction, just the bare driver. In fact it looks like it is aligning with the simulation almost perfectly from 20hz up to 500hz where the cone brake-up starts to alter the driver response.
Can your simulation replicate this measurement from 20hz to 500hz?
Perceval, I tried a SLOB (slot-loaded-open-baffle) a few years ago with pair of very cheap 8" GRS drivers and it was a total failure. It extended the bass only minimally and added all sorts of artifacts and distortions because of the slot-loading. The SLOB is very similar to the ripole in concept except it uses two drivers. I know some people have made it work and like it, but I am not convinced and not so motivated to try it again. I suspect a simple U-frame would give the same bass lift without introducing any artifacts caused by forcing the sound into a slot. And I honestly was able to get the same bass lift from the drivers with a simple 5db DSP correction without introducing any of the strange slot-loading artifacts.
cheers
jeshi
Attachments
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Hi Jeshi,
Your measurements look quite good... I could try to resimulate it, but need to know the voltage of your measurement.
It might be that the measuring distance of 30 cm is part of the "problem". Though this is perfectly near-field, it may blend out room effects, which are part of the dipole approach. I choose listening distance for my measurements, and results seem to be in good correlation with the simulations.
Well, maybe I´m a bit lost here...
Tried the naked driver approach for myself, but found that efficiency is too low for me, so that lead to the design of a baffle without negative baffle effects. Not sure if I succeeded, but like the result...
Your approach and your solutions are different, and this is a good thing. I believe that in diyaudio it´s not about better or worse, it´s about finding and building stuff that pleases yourself, and that´s what you´re doing! Hope I expressed that well, English is not my mother language...
Whish you all the best and super music with the RSS 265!
Mattes
Your measurements look quite good... I could try to resimulate it, but need to know the voltage of your measurement.
It might be that the measuring distance of 30 cm is part of the "problem". Though this is perfectly near-field, it may blend out room effects, which are part of the dipole approach. I choose listening distance for my measurements, and results seem to be in good correlation with the simulations.
Well, maybe I´m a bit lost here...
Tried the naked driver approach for myself, but found that efficiency is too low for me, so that lead to the design of a baffle without negative baffle effects. Not sure if I succeeded, but like the result...
Your approach and your solutions are different, and this is a good thing. I believe that in diyaudio it´s not about better or worse, it´s about finding and building stuff that pleases yourself, and that´s what you´re doing! Hope I expressed that well, English is not my mother language...
Whish you all the best and super music with the RSS 265!
Mattes
Hi Mattes,
Thank you, yes you expressed yourself very well. I am certain you have created an amazing and excellent speaker with your Acoustic Excellence 18" and massive flower baffle. It is really impressive. If my acoustat ESLs ever died I would almost certainly be following your lead on this and try the same 18" driver and baffle approach. In the end it is our ears and appreciation of the music from our speakers that is the final judge. The simulations and measurements only help guide us. I hope the RSS265 will continue to perform well as I build a baffle and place it into my room at 1meter listening distance. But a crazy idea just hit me: why not design my OB nearfield speakers for a 0.3m or 0.5m distance?!?
I suspect you are right though that the 30cm distance is too short for the dipole losses to start appearing, but I don't think it is quite as awful a situation as your simulations predict. I may be forced to use a U-frame, large baffle, or aperiodic enclosure though to get enough bass.
Out of curiosity what are your favorite cartridges for your turntable? I would love to track down some of the albums you mentioned but I think they are German artists and maybe difficult to find in Japan. I did find an excellent jazz recording here by the Oscar Peterson Trio from Holland so I might get lucky.
I do apologize for my long and complex English. I sometimes forget people's mother language.
Vielen Dank
Jeshi
Thank you, yes you expressed yourself very well. I am certain you have created an amazing and excellent speaker with your Acoustic Excellence 18" and massive flower baffle. It is really impressive. If my acoustat ESLs ever died I would almost certainly be following your lead on this and try the same 18" driver and baffle approach. In the end it is our ears and appreciation of the music from our speakers that is the final judge. The simulations and measurements only help guide us. I hope the RSS265 will continue to perform well as I build a baffle and place it into my room at 1meter listening distance. But a crazy idea just hit me: why not design my OB nearfield speakers for a 0.3m or 0.5m distance?!?
I suspect you are right though that the 30cm distance is too short for the dipole losses to start appearing, but I don't think it is quite as awful a situation as your simulations predict. I may be forced to use a U-frame, large baffle, or aperiodic enclosure though to get enough bass.
Out of curiosity what are your favorite cartridges for your turntable? I would love to track down some of the albums you mentioned but I think they are German artists and maybe difficult to find in Japan. I did find an excellent jazz recording here by the Oscar Peterson Trio from Holland so I might get lucky.
I do apologize for my long and complex English. I sometimes forget people's mother language.
Vielen Dank
Jeshi
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Jeshi,
I know you are looking for vinyls, but if you ever want some free hires music to play from a computer, these two sites are quite impressive.
This one has mostly classical, but offers different formats, from CD quality, up to very high bit rates, in either stereo or multi-channel files.
2L High Resolution Music .:. free TEST BENCH
This one has a lot of jazz, and other genres as well. This site scouts the net to find free hires files and I found some very good stuff using it.
Free High-Res | H i F i D U I N O
Enjoy!
I know you are looking for vinyls, but if you ever want some free hires music to play from a computer, these two sites are quite impressive.
This one has mostly classical, but offers different formats, from CD quality, up to very high bit rates, in either stereo or multi-channel files.
2L High Resolution Music .:. free TEST BENCH
This one has a lot of jazz, and other genres as well. This site scouts the net to find free hires files and I found some very good stuff using it.
Free High-Res | H i F i D U I N O
Enjoy!
Hi Jeshi,
no need to apologise!
My better cartridges are a Goldenote Valore from Italy, an Ortofon VM (silver? Don´t remember anymore...), and a Clearaudio Concept MC, but since a few years, the Clearaudio has not moved off the arm... so I could as well sell the others.
I like the Concept MC best for it´s tracking abilities and the resulting cleanliness, and it seems to achieve a nice synergy effect with my Clearaudio arm.
I like my old records very much, but have to admit that the majority of the music I´m actually listening to is digital as well, partly due to the fact that I´m away from home for work 8 month per year, and digitally I can have my music with me underway...
So the records I mentioned are all digital, sorry... files in fact, don´t listen to CDs since several years, but as I didn´t want to use a computer, I have a dedicated digital source in my hifi. When I´m underway, I use my laptop as source, and have a nice DAC/Amp and a nice headphone.
I have paid my files and the CDs I have extracted, but I´m not sure if it´s legal to share these files?
All the best
Mattes
no need to apologise!
My better cartridges are a Goldenote Valore from Italy, an Ortofon VM (silver? Don´t remember anymore...), and a Clearaudio Concept MC, but since a few years, the Clearaudio has not moved off the arm... so I could as well sell the others.
I like the Concept MC best for it´s tracking abilities and the resulting cleanliness, and it seems to achieve a nice synergy effect with my Clearaudio arm.
I like my old records very much, but have to admit that the majority of the music I´m actually listening to is digital as well, partly due to the fact that I´m away from home for work 8 month per year, and digitally I can have my music with me underway...
So the records I mentioned are all digital, sorry... files in fact, don´t listen to CDs since several years, but as I didn´t want to use a computer, I have a dedicated digital source in my hifi. When I´m underway, I use my laptop as source, and have a nice DAC/Amp and a nice headphone.
I have paid my files and the CDs I have extracted, but I´m not sure if it´s legal to share these files?
All the best
Mattes
Long time!
Mattes, I hope your ocean crossings are going well.
I really wanted to find a way to implement your flowers with the W6-2313 I am playing with right now.
But, I need it in an enclosure, I can't have it on OB.
Today, I was talking to a good friend. He's going through a rough patch in life. Money is scarce. It's terrible because he is a master with composite materials, has a brand of gorgeous bicycles (Keith) plus shapes good surfboards and still has money trouble .... Times are tough.
So, I figured, why not involve him in this little project and give him some money for helping.
We were talking, and an idea formed in my head. How about doing the flower baffle, but merged into an organic looking enclosure. He has a lot of surfboard foam scraps, so I'll use that to shape an enclosure, and he will help me cover it with carbon fibres. It will be 3 layers. Inside is carbon, middle fiberglass and outside carbon. It will help kill the resonance from the carbon, along with the foam inside.
We were brainstorming this afternoon and came up with this sketch.
He gave me a bunch of foam, so, I'll test my talent of sculptor soon!
Could be fun!
Mattes, I hope your ocean crossings are going well.
I really wanted to find a way to implement your flowers with the W6-2313 I am playing with right now.
But, I need it in an enclosure, I can't have it on OB.
Today, I was talking to a good friend. He's going through a rough patch in life. Money is scarce. It's terrible because he is a master with composite materials, has a brand of gorgeous bicycles (Keith) plus shapes good surfboards and still has money trouble .... Times are tough.
So, I figured, why not involve him in this little project and give him some money for helping.
We were talking, and an idea formed in my head. How about doing the flower baffle, but merged into an organic looking enclosure. He has a lot of surfboard foam scraps, so I'll use that to shape an enclosure, and he will help me cover it with carbon fibres. It will be 3 layers. Inside is carbon, middle fiberglass and outside carbon. It will help kill the resonance from the carbon, along with the foam inside.
We were brainstorming this afternoon and came up with this sketch.
He gave me a bunch of foam, so, I'll test my talent of sculptor soon!
Could be fun!
Attachments
Hi Perceval,
yes, the oceans... I´m in the Atlantic Ocean since several weeks, in the moment north of Cabo Verde Islands, and the weather is smooth, work goes well. But music is "only" played via headphone... and I miss my equipment at home.
The Flowers have been a dipole approach, which of course would not work with the single TB 2313, it would need something for the bass. If you strive for a vented or closed enclosure, I´m not absolutely sure if it´s worth the time and efforts to do the flowers. I would think that the teardrop enclosure type should be easier to fabricate and should be sufficient, just study the different commercial realisations (Eclipse, B and W) and the lots of good ideas and discussions here in this forum.
The main reason for the flowers was to mitigate the baffle effect, and I think with an enclosure it´s not worth it.
Laminating with carbon over foam is most possible a good idea and a pretty sophisticated way to do the enclosure, at least if you want to have it visually nice, high-gloss outer shell and such...
Good luck, and looking forward to see the results!
All the best
Mattes
yes, the oceans... I´m in the Atlantic Ocean since several weeks, in the moment north of Cabo Verde Islands, and the weather is smooth, work goes well. But music is "only" played via headphone... and I miss my equipment at home.
The Flowers have been a dipole approach, which of course would not work with the single TB 2313, it would need something for the bass. If you strive for a vented or closed enclosure, I´m not absolutely sure if it´s worth the time and efforts to do the flowers. I would think that the teardrop enclosure type should be easier to fabricate and should be sufficient, just study the different commercial realisations (Eclipse, B and W) and the lots of good ideas and discussions here in this forum.
The main reason for the flowers was to mitigate the baffle effect, and I think with an enclosure it´s not worth it.
Laminating with carbon over foam is most possible a good idea and a pretty sophisticated way to do the enclosure, at least if you want to have it visually nice, high-gloss outer shell and such...
Good luck, and looking forward to see the results!
All the best
Mattes
Hello Mattes,
glad to see you got an easy going in the Atlantic.
I get what you mean about the flowers for the dipole sound.
You probably just saved me many hours of shaping foam!
The plan is for sealed, which of course will not be a bass monster, but could be used with a sub or two to implement bass.
And yes, it shall be high gloss outer shell... my buddy can do that, and it would give him something to do during those hard times.
Since I'll forego the "flowers", I'll probably move this to the W6-2313 thread again.
Thanks for your inputs, and safe travels.
glad to see you got an easy going in the Atlantic.
I get what you mean about the flowers for the dipole sound.
You probably just saved me many hours of shaping foam!
The plan is for sealed, which of course will not be a bass monster, but could be used with a sub or two to implement bass.
And yes, it shall be high gloss outer shell... my buddy can do that, and it would give him something to do during those hard times.
Since I'll forego the "flowers", I'll probably move this to the W6-2313 thread again.
Thanks for your inputs, and safe travels.
I tried a flower petal open baffle and it sounds a great.
Foam Core Board Speaker Enclosures?
Bare also tried it too:
Foam Core Board Speaker Enclosures?
Bare also tried it too:
Interesting thread. Great potential here. Although some guidelines have been provided for preferred EVA density (100kg/m3?), it's difficult to get detailed information in imperial terms here in the States. Only information I could find said that 100kg would be roughly 6lb/ft3, which is hard to source. Certainly not inexpensive. Minicel T300 and higher (3lb/ft3) may work though...
I was thinking more in terms of stiffness. I thought the higher density would be stiffer while still being easy to cut and sand/paint etc.
If stiffness is a concern you could try bonding the EVA to some foamcore as a backer.
Not a huge concern, but I am interested in possible multi-way builds and there appears to be multiple grades of EVA quality. The gym/yoga mats seem to be 2lb/ft3, equivalent to 38kg/m3, which I believe Jeshi mentioned as less preferable. However I was mistaken about Minicell, which is Crosslinked Polyethylene (XPE), not EVA and therefore not as easy to use.
Hi,
think I was the one who brought up the 100kg/m³ data... but during material tests, I found this density (translates to around 6lb/ft³) preferable to other materials I tried.
There are a lot of factors in play, and all also depends on what you´re doing, so my choice might only be valid for my application. Factors I was concerned with include damping, stiffness, routability, sandability, surface appearance, availability in large and thick pieces, and glueability as well, but that´s mainly a glue question (I used black epoxy).
I searched for long and got my EVA for quite a high price in the UK. Would have been cheaper in China, but minimum order there was one container full of EVA... maybe a group buy?
All the best
Mattes
All the best
Mattes
think I was the one who brought up the 100kg/m³ data... but during material tests, I found this density (translates to around 6lb/ft³) preferable to other materials I tried.
There are a lot of factors in play, and all also depends on what you´re doing, so my choice might only be valid for my application. Factors I was concerned with include damping, stiffness, routability, sandability, surface appearance, availability in large and thick pieces, and glueability as well, but that´s mainly a glue question (I used black epoxy).
I searched for long and got my EVA for quite a high price in the UK. Would have been cheaper in China, but minimum order there was one container full of EVA... maybe a group buy?
All the best
Mattes
All the best
Mattes
Attachments
Thanks Mattes. Yes, that high density is hard to find. In the States the only option I have found is the Minicel T600, which is a special high density EVA. It is much more expensive than cheap gym mats at $51 for 48"x72" 3/8in. But still less messy and easier to handle than mdf or plywood, so I wouldn't mind paying more. Amazon also has some possible options that claim 5lb/ft3 (85kg/m3).
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